What Pace Manyung doesn’t get, as explained by Buff Fans.

This topic has 13 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 4 years, 12 months ago by 89ute.

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- 11/27/2019 at 5:44 AM #115245
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  gUrthBrooks
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  the comments on the Buff Fan board help this idiot Buff fan, like Pace, understand how the star system is somewhat out of touch because Utah continues its evaluation into High School players senior seasons, whereas most of the star system is based through a players junior year only. See link below to buff fan site, lots of great comments by Buff fans. “they take advantage of evaluations for kid’s senior years. I’ve always wondered if giving kids star ratings after their junior years means that there are a bunch of under appreciated senior bloomers.” “as others have said, they close very well in the second signing period and signing good transfers to fill holes in the depth chart. but the biggest thing is the culture and development of Whittingham. he takes on projects with size and turns them into maulers. Most coaches need to recruit well first, but Whittingham is one of the few that does not need 4*+ players to win year in and year out. Honestly, it’s maddening to me because we recruit around the same level and we have previously been on such a different path. But yeah, respect to Whittingham for what he is able to do. Because so few coaches can do what he is doing…” https://247sports.com/college/colorado/board/104133/Contents/utahs-recruiting-139159519/
- 11/27/2019 at 7:35 AM #115248
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  User Suspended
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  Sigh, please try to break out of your kwitt echo chamber and re read my post….
  
  1. I state over and over that I believe kwhiit is excellent at player development – got it? If you can’t acknowledge this statement then I suspect you’re hopeless.
  
  2. I state that if Kwhitt was even a little better at winning the recruiting battle for elite high school athletes the program would be in a different place.
  
  3. There is simply no excuse for a team knocking on the door of a second PAC12 championship game and possible CFP not to have a handful of elite athlete commits –
  
  4. I get it, kwhitt can develop unknown talent and that’s great. But what’s his aversion to known talent? Guy like JJ you can start from day one? Is kwhitt simply not interested? insecure? boring? to win these battles?
  
  5. This should the Golden age for recruiting at Utah. Top 10 team. 8 players targeted for the NFL. Nope, a 107 rated recruiting class with zero 4* commits.
  - 11/27/2019 at 7:49 AM #115253
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    UteFanatic
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    Do you actually believe that Utah’s final recruiting ranking will be anywhere near where it is now?
    - 11/27/2019 at 8:40 AM #115258
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      User Suspended
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      Of course not. But 40-50 is probably the landing spot. Again, it has never been a better time to sell UofU football and all im seeing is “rudy’s”. Unacceptable and/or arrogant of kwhitt to let this opportunity pass.
      - 11/27/2019 at 8:46 AM #115259
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        UteFanatic
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        Then why do you keep making reference to a totally irrelevant recruiting ranking?
        
        11/27/2019 at 9:57 AM #115271
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        User Suspended
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        Huh?
        
        11/27/2019 at 11:23 AM #115293
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        UteFanatic
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        Don’t be obtuse. How many times have you used Utah’s 100+ recruiting ranking as justification that Utah is recruiting poorly, knowing full well that the final recruiting ranking won’t be anywhere near where it is now.
        
        Utah recruits in the 30-50 range. That’s just how it is and it won’t change. Get used to it and just enjoy Utah’s success despite not being able to recruit like a blue blood.
      - 11/27/2019 at 11:36 AM #115298
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        DrJazzy
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        Serious question for you: Do you genuinely believe that the Utah staff avoids recruiting 4*/5* kids????
        
        And do you genuinely think that Utah/SLC is an easy sell to a 4*/5* with offers to USC, Texas, Alabama, OSU, Mich, etc etc???
  - 11/27/2019 at 8:21 AM #115256
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    gUrthBrooks
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    Let me ask you this…Is this an up year, or a down year as far as the amount of available scholarships at Utah? Let’s start there, you answer that question, and Pleeeeaaassseee answer me with an actual number of available scholarships less RM’s so I know you did your research so we can avoid your bitchy ignorant attitude, then we can establish if Utah is going to have the same number or not of guys committing to pull the ranking anywhere close to where you think it should be or even equal to previous years.
    Now if this is a down year as far as available scholarships, do you think it would be judicious to wait for the guys that you really are targeting rather grab a bunch of 3* 4* guys that have s**tty attitudes and will go act like premadonnas at AZ ST all because you’re worried about what people on the internet will think? Ignore the stars for a minute, that’s only a part of the equation. And sometimes, as is frequently proven every year, is totally unreliable.
    Also, college foot ball is changing because of the transfer portal. You mentioned JJ, and simultaneously fail to realize that UTAH got a transfer product from Baylor that is equal or better than JJ’s athleticism at corner, we’ll see how that plays out. On a year of low amount of available scholarships, the availability of the transfer portal to grab guys like Manny Bowen, although that didn’t work out, I emphatically applaud the coaches for their strategy in recruiting. Utah knows the fit it needs at Utah, it knows it’s not going to get the Darren Carrington’s on the front end who want the glamor of an apparel owned University.
    Lastly, consider the Lillie’s of the goddamned field, look at this team that K-Whitt has slowly and methodically built, and you want these flash in the pan changes rather than trusting and respecting the process. it might be best for Utah to win the PAC 12, then go recruit the top guys. Rather than commit guys early that it won’t want down the road.
  - 11/27/2019 at 9:22 AM #115267
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    noneyadb
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    Buffs went to the CCG in 2016 had a bump in recruiting rankings by signing a couple 4* guys but how did that turn out? Utah should see a similar bump having been to the CCG last year and hopefully this year, but Whitt isn’t just taking guys based on star rankings. He wants kids that are hungry and determined to improve. Utah has a stellar program they’re putting together and are getting to a point they can start selecting who they want. See recent RB commit, and DE. Granted the DE is undersized but the kid has a 30 ACT, and 1300+ SAT scores. That’s the player Whitt wants. He’s willing to develop a kid for a couple years to see them benefit. See Tupai, he was there #1 Utah player, and absolutely mauled HS kids. Yet he can barely get on the field…
    
    Stars aren’t everything, but having more Jaylon Johnson’s every year would be a thing of beauty. Unfortunately those players are very rare.
- 11/27/2019 at 9:18 AM #115266
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  89ute
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  The problem as I see it is trying to sync up our coached up recruits to the point we have no holes in the roster. I get Pace’s point, 4 star talent is practically ready to contribute the moment the join the program, Like JJ. Let take Blackmon and Burgess for example, I remember them quite well as frosh. They got a little special teams work but it has taken Burgess 3 years to get where he is this year, Blackmon 2. No one saw Burgess coming out and being the player he is this year. These guys are outstanding replacements for Ballard and Blair. It is damn near impossible to to this year in and year out at ALL positions with “coached up” talent.
  
  Look at our 04 and 08 teams, both were magical alignments of coached up talent. This year is the same thing – an alignment of coached up talent … damn near every player in every position.
  
  With more 4 stars this process of filling holes is going to be much easier.
  
  Another example is Cody Barton. He didn’t become an outstanding player until the end of his Jr year but he played significant minutes beginning his freshmen year. Cody made YUGE mistakes during this time. His was forced in because we didn’t have any other options. This will happen again because we do not have recruiting classes like the perennial top 10 programs. Next year is a total rebuild in our defensive backfield. Honestly, how do you think this is going to go? I think I do. Think Cody Barton frosh, soph and 3/4 junior years – it’s going to be rough.
  
  The way we recruit and build talent, it will be another few years IF we see another team like the 2019 Utes.
  
  3 Stars align. It does not happen often.
  - 11/27/2019 at 11:03 AM #115289
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    UtahFanSir
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    I agree with you and like you, I get Pace’s overall point. Yet Pace essentially has targeted the coaching staff for not doing their job on recruiting, while yes, that same staff coaches up the kids Utah gets. His point, as I understand it, is that Kyle Whittingham should be targeting 4* and 5* recruits and getting their fare share of them, at this point.
    
    Arguably Utah is not getting “their fare share” of these kids. But if you look at the recruiting for all but a handful of Pac-12 programs, you will see the same pattern. USC, UCLA, Stanford, Oregon, Washington, perhaps ASU do better. Yet Colorado, OSU, Washington State and Utah seem to settle for 3* recruits. Consider Arizona, 3* kids. I have not looked at these trends in detail, so I could be wrong here. But Utah is certainly not unique.
    
    Utah has adapted its recruiting. They have refined and fine tuned the characteristics they look for, offer those kids. They look for frame, speed, and coachability. Clearly, their recruiting is detailed, rigorous. We know this costs the program a bunch of money. So its not for the lack of trying that they are lot yet landing a full suite of ESPN 300 recruits. You could even argue that Utah outperforms in recruiting. We know the recruits are coached up and we know that the NFL loves what Utah does to prepare its players for the big leagues. That trend is marching on.
    
    There are likely outstanding issues to Utah. Geographically, its far away from any coast. Even within the Pac-12, it is likely the most remote program, along with Washington State in Pullman. Even this week, when I mentioned that I went to Utah, folks I spoke to in airports were confused between Utah and BYU, and Utah being a private school for the LDS religion. If in this day and age that confusion is still that prevalent, its another barrier, albeit scalable, for recruits and their parents. Also, Utah’s coaching staff tell the trust to a recruit: earn your position. We witnessed two 4* QB recruits who could not handle that, or his parents could not.
    
    Utah has done okay on the field in the modern era, since say 1994. Certainly its bowl record is terrific. Peak years 2005 and 2008 are to be frank, now distant memories, particularly for recruits. The program only this year has achieved a winning record in the Pac-12, what 41 or 42-40. It has no conference titles, just a division 1st place, another near miss (damn you Colorado). The team plays a hard-nosed style of football that some folks think is boring. The program has struggled on offense, has not been a haven for gifted quarterbacks. Removing a few highlight years pre Pac-12, the program is still working into greater national respectability. So its completely understandable that Utah does not have the phenomenal cachet of select SEC, Big-12, Big-10 and even a handful of PAC-12 programs. Those programs had 70 plus years to build that reputation. Utah has had really 10, maybe 15 years.
    
    This is to say criticism Pace levies has a shred of merit, while his full-throated dismissal of Kyle Whittingham’s recruiting, at least in my opinion, is not warranted. It is way too soon for that. In my view, Utah’s progress in this regard is moving at an exponential pace. But even for an exponential curve, the first bunch of years, the trajectory looks somewhat flat even with exponential growth. Only once more time lapses, does the growth or improvement really take off. I think this program is on the cusp of just that.
- 11/27/2019 at 10:58 AM #115288
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  PhiladelphiaUte
  Participant
  
  FWIW, there’s traditionally a 1-yr lag in “performance” vs. “recruiting”!
  
  I remember back on “Letter of Intent Day”, in Feb. 2005 wondering why our 2005 recruiting class was lower than I’d expected. I’d assumed that our 2004 season was going to reel in huge 2005 recruits, and we even had a blue chip, 4-star QB committed (Josh Portis). But then Meyer followed fmr-Pres. Bernie Machen to Florida, and Portis followed Meyer. Our ’05 class wasn’t bad, but I’d thought it would have been better, and just assumed that it wasn’t because we’d lost our hotshot head coach. It was then that the [remaining] coaching staff stated that good seasons have a larger impact on the high school Juniors, than they do with the Seniors, because the Seniors have largely already established relationships with the institutions that had been recruiting them the year before — while they were Juniors.
  
  Fast forward to our 2008 season. We went undefeated, won the Sugar Bowl, and finished #2 in the nation. The ensuing ’09 class wasn’t much different from the ’08 class, but the ’10 class was one of the best ones in Utah Football history as far as “star ratings” go. These examples suggest that our 2021 class will reap more benefits to our 2019 season than the 2020 class. There’s a 1-yr lag.
- 11/27/2019 at 12:03 PM #115304
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  89ute
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  You nailed it UtahFanSir. I think our program is pretty much going to be Wisconsin/Michigan St. type for all the reasons you mentioned. Wisc. & Mich.St have had some years identical to what we are experiencing and neither has found themselves rich in 4 stars as a result. I don’t think we will either.
  
  And yes, Pace is harsh on the staff regarding blue chip recruits.
  
  BUT – we may have a chance. Clemson build themselves into a national power by eventually stacking recruiting classes with blue chip talent. Hell, i don’t even know if Clemson is a city in South Carolina but I’d like to know if Clemson has anything other than their program to attract blue chip talent? They’re not on the coast, I don’t think it’s a “cool” city, but it would be interesting to me if someone could shed some light on this for me. If it’s strictly Dabo and what he’s built, there may be hope for us.
  
  I hope to hell the 2020 Utes somehow put together a 10 win season but I have a hard time thinking we win the south next year. 3 appearances in the championship game will turn a few heads … maybe? But I think we go back to rebuilding for a good two years before we make some serious noise again three years out, at best.
  
  In summary, Whitt and staff are damn good.
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