I’m not sure why people are so hard on ludwig concerning QB development

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- 11/27/2023 at 2:47 PM #205935
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  utetastic
  Participant
  
  I hear a lot of people say that Ludwig in not good at developing QB’s
  I guess everyone is entitled to their opinions but I think he does a good job.
  
  He has been with us now for 9 years. 2005-2008 and 2019-2023
  
  The starters he has had at quarterback during that time are Brett Ratliff, Brian Johnson, Tyler Huntley, Cam Rising, and Bryson Barnes. (I’m not counting a 1 or 2 game starter or 2020 because all development was limited)
  
  Those names alone should probably answer why it seems he does a good job with quarterbacks but lets look at numbers.
  
  Brett Ratliff 59% comp percentage 7.3 y/a 137.8 rate
  Brian Johnson 66% comp percentage 7.7 y/a 144.2 rate
  Tyler Huntley 73% comp percentage 10.3 y/a 177.5 rate
  (Those are Huntleys numbers under Ludwig)
  Cam Rising 64% comp percentage 7.8 y/a 147.4 rate
  Bryson Barnes 60% comp percentage 6.8 y/a 129.4 rate
  
  Top 7 all time completion percentages at Utah (min. 100 attempts)
  1. Tyler Hunter 67.2
  2. Alex Smith 66.3
  3. Brian Johnson 66.2
  4. Cam Rising 64.1
  5. Mike Mccoy 63.7
  6. Terrance Cain 63.7
  7. Lee Grosscup 62.1
  
  3 of the top 7 at utah where all under the direction of Andy.
  
  Top 7 all time passing efficiency rate at Utah (minimum 100 attemps)
  1. Alex Smith 164.4
  2. Tyler Huntley 152.6
  3. Ken Vierra. 149.2
  4. Cam Rising 147.4
  5. Mike McCoy. 146.1
  6. Lee Grosscup 144.8
  7. Brian Johnson 144.2
  
  3 of the top 7 were under ludwig.
  
  I think the reason people say he doesn’t develop quarterbacks is mostly based on past nonludwig history and on this year. We assume because Johnson hasn’t been developed as well as we think he should be that it is Ludwigs fault. I’ll admit Johnson hasn’t been great and we haven’t been able to see Rose but Barnes has been surprisingly good for his tools and limitations. In some ways I think Barnes being as good as he has been, shows that Ludwig has developed him more than anyone would have expected. Maybe he has developed all of them more than could be expected.
  Brian Johnson wasn’t really given an NFL shot because he had limitations but somehow was one our best quarterbacks ever. Cam had to transfer from his first school because he could see a limited future but ended up being one of our best ever. (so far)
  Tyler Huntleys numbers jumped dramatically when Ludwig became his coach.
  
  Just like all of you I wish we had better quarterback play this year but I’m not sure we can put all that on Ludwigs lack of ability to train and teach quarterbacks.
- 11/27/2023 at 3:00 PM #205936
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  AlohaUte
  Participant
  
  I’m inclined to agree with you. Fans often times are irrational, they seem to forget that we had a dynamic, top rated offense just last season.
- 11/27/2023 at 3:03 PM #205937
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  ProudUte
  Participant
  
  I like coach Ludwig, but I don’t think he has done a great job developing QB. I am not going to list names here, but there have been plenty of highly rated QBs who never …
  
  This year was very sad. I saw a freshman Fifita at Arizona kill it. We have tried a myriad of QBs who were not ready for the big-time. They looked lost and lacked confidence (all of them).
  
  I think Ludwig is a very good offensive coordinator. I just want a coach to focus on the QB room fulltime.
  
  That’s just my opinion.
  - 11/27/2023 at 3:33 PM #205939
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    utetastic
    Participant
    
    Honest question for you. Im not trying to be a jerk, but really curious about your opinion.
    Here are our quarterback recruits that Ludwig has had a chance to work with.
    Jason Shelley 2017
    Jack Tuttle 2018
    Cooper Justice 2020
    Peter Costelli 2021
    Nate Johnson 2022
    Brandon Rose 2022
    Mack Howard 2023
    
    Which of those guys did Ludwig fail with?
    
    Shelley under Ludwig was good but left for playing time.
    Tuttle left before Ludwig got here.
    Justice is a back up at Linwood university
    Peter Costelli hasn’t been able to find playing time at Troy or Northern Colorado
    Nate Johnson could be the one real huge argument for not being developed from my perspective.
    We just don’t know yet on Rose but supposedly he was the starter until injured.
    
    To me the biggest complaint should be lack of player evaluation. Some of those recruits are a big miss.
  - 11/27/2023 at 4:00 PM #205941
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    Ute Dub
    Participant
    
    What about when he developed Cam Rising into back-to-back PAC 12 championships and Tyler Huntly getting to back-to-back PAC 12 championship games?
    - 11/27/2023 at 5:43 PM #205958
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      2008 National Champ
      Participant
      
      Ludwig was at Vanderbilt in 2018.
      
      Taylor put in two years developing Huntley, Ludwig got the benefit.
      
      Perhaps the success Rising has had in Ludwig’s offense is more a sign of Rising’s ability than Ludwig’s. None of Bentley, Brewer, Barnes or Johnson was able to run the scheme effectively which to me says that it is not QB friendly and Ludwig needs a specific skillset to make it work properly.
      
      He’s the guy in charge of evaluating and recruiting the QB’s, as well as coaching them up to do what he needs them to, and calling plays that best fit the abilities of those QB’s.,, at some point the offense’s failures need to be attributed to Ludwig instead of just the successes.
      - 11/27/2023 at 5:55 PM #205960
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        Rick
        Participant
        
        I disagree completely with this take. Huntley improved because of Ludwig – not because of Troy Taylor. Have you talked with insiders about Troy Taylor’s time at the U? I’m going to leave that statement as oblique as it sounds.
        
        Ludwig brought in an NFL-style offense and dramatically improved Huntley’s pro potential.
        
        By the way, I give credit to Huntley first – and Cam first – when discussing their development. The players have to be all in and both of them have been.
    - 11/28/2023 at 2:23 PM #206078
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      22Ute22
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      Cam developed under Tom Herman at Texas as well.
- 11/27/2023 at 3:17 PM #205938
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  DrahtUte
  Participant
  
  Have you been happy with our passing game? If not, are you saying that it’s more the fault of our receivers or o-line than our QBs?
  
  For me, our passing game has been so bad for so long, I think the QBs have to be looked at for a lot of the blame. But we’ve gotten relatively highly ranked QB recruits, so the problem has to be in their development.
  - 11/27/2023 at 3:36 PM #205940
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    utetastic
    Participant
    
    I was super happy with our passing game in 2019, 2021, and 2022. Not happy this year. So is that Ludwig or other factors? I don’t know.
  - 11/27/2023 at 6:13 PM #205962
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    Ute Dub
    Participant
    
    No. But what did Ludwig have to work with? QB1 and QB2 out. RB1 was injured all year and RB2 out. TE1 and TE2 out. Vele was hurt a game or two, Vaki got banged up…and to still go 8-4. My hell, what a job by these coaches.
    
    What casual fans don’t realize is that you need playmakers and players who know the plays. Everyone likes to bag on Ludwig’s play calling or development, but Ludwig’s going with guys that only know half the offense or less. That’s the reason you run the ball up the middle so much.
    - 11/27/2023 at 6:59 PM #205966
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      2008 National Champ
      Participant
      
      but Ludwig’s going with guys that only know half the offense or less.
      
      Johnson was in his 2nd year in the system. Whose job was it to make sure that he knew the offense? And if he wasn’t capable of learning the offense, whose job was it to call plays from the 1/2 he knew that would be the most effective? And if he wasn’t capable of learning the offense, whose job was it to figure that in the recruiting process?
      
      I’m sorry but you just can’t remove Ludwig from the equation.
      - 11/27/2023 at 9:06 PM #205991
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        stbone
        Participant
        
        Your take is way off base.
        
        The problem isn’t that Johnson doesn’t know the system or that the system is too complex. The problem is that Johnson can’t process with any pressure and is one of the least accurate passers in recent memory. Reading the report of his performance at the Elite 11, you can see that his problems pre-date Utah. Blaming Johnson’s current limitations on Ludwig is ludicrous.
        
        Now, you could argue that it was a mistake to recruit Johnson. I’d disagree with that take as well. Rose provided a strong and safe foundation to the recruiting class, with Johnson being the developmental project with huge upside. I see no error in this plan.
- 11/27/2023 at 4:49 PM #205947
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  ORute
  Participant
  
  Development comes from game experience, QBs want to play, if they are or think they are good enough to start somewhere they head out. So developing a QB is kind of a misnomer these days, Whit has said as much–lot of turnover in QB rooms–if they are not playing, they head elsewhere. No point in developing a guy who’s just gunna bounce to a program where they will start–Nix, Penix, DJU, etc.
  My knock on Ludwig wouldn’t be development as much as trusting our QB to just go ball out without fear of getting benched. If our QBs weren’t playing with confidence this yr, thats bc we ran 65% of time and basically said we dont trust you enough to pass and also if you turn the ball over, youre benched (Baylor, OSU). So then yea, the QB position wont thrive in those conditions. I think the staff didnt see BB/NJ as the future and kept them on a tight leash–pound the rock, protect the clock, dont turn it over. I’d be curious how Rose would have been handled, maybe given a little more latitude, idk
  - 11/27/2023 at 9:10 PM #205994
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    stbone
    Participant
    
    Following your argument, you are saying we need to expect bad results in order to let a quarterback develop. While there is some truth to that, good development involves giving your quarterback a short leash (or as some would say, a simplified playbook) until they demonstrate mastery of that. As they demonstrate mastery, you expand the playbook.
    
    After the Huntley and Rising, we are delusional if we are arguing that Ludwig CAN’T execute a modern offense and always keeps his quarterbacks on a short leash. Once a quarterback proves mastery, Ludwig gives them great latitude and they don’t have to play afraid. The problem is that BOTH BB and NJ were NOT executing and so the leash had to be kept short.
- 11/27/2023 at 4:56 PM #205949
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  Utah
  Participant
  
  Let’s look at his QB’s:
  
  Ratliff: 5 years in the NFL
  BJ: Great college QB, soon to be NFL head coach come Feb.
  Pro Bowl QB Tyler Huntley
  Cam Rising, who has won two PAC-12 titles.
  Mike McCoy: 4 years in the NFL. NFL coach now.
  
  That is pretty good. I think we ought to let Ludwig do what he does.
  
  QB’s at other schools:
  
  Ryan Lindley – 4 years in the NFL
  Stave – 3 years in the NFL
  Shurmur – 3 years in the NFL
  
  We can definitely do a better job recruiting top end talent QB’s, but he will get you into the NFL.
  - 11/27/2023 at 6:15 PM #205963
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    Ute Dub
    Participant
    
    Yup, and going 8-4 with the below issue is a masterful job:
    
    QB1 and QB2 out. RB1 was injured all year and RB2 out. TE1 and TE2 out
  - 11/27/2023 at 6:23 PM #205964
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    2008 National Champ
    Participant
    
    Mike McCoy played from 92-94. Are we now crediting his development to Ludwig because he was a GA in 92?
    
    Huntley and Lindley were both seniors for their one year under Ludwig.
    
    It’s also interesting that Vanderbilt took away QB coaching from Ludwig after his first season, instead giving him TE’s for 2 years and RB’s the last. So Ludwig was Shurmur’s position coach his freshman year only. Gerry Gdowski was the QB coach from 2016-2018.
    - 11/27/2023 at 7:27 PM #205974
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      Central Coast Ute
      Participant
      
      Are you suggesting that the Utes should look to Vandy as an example as how to handle Ludwig?
      - 11/27/2023 at 8:54 PM #205987
        
        2008 National Champ
        Participant
        
        oh, hah, yes I see how you could think I was suggesting that. 🙂
        
        People (not me) have been bringing up on other threads that Ludwig be relieved of coaching QB’s and when I looked up Ludwig’s history I noticed that he was only OC/QB his first year at Vandy. So it was interesting to me but not really germaine to the point I was trying to make which was that Ludwig shouldn’t get full credit for all of the QB’s @Utah mentioned.
        
        To your question, I really don’t know how I feel about Ludwig. I watch enough games to see things I wish he would incorporate into his scheme and I get incredibly frustrated when I see what I think is a predictable call get stuffed. At the same time, I know enough about football to understand that bad calls can turn into TD’s and great calls when poorly executed can get real ugly, real quick. I split a successful play around 70/30 favored towards execution over play call on average so unless you are asking your players to do something that they aren’t capable of, play calling should not be the issue most of us make it out to be.
        
        As an OC, I can’t argue with the 2019, 2021 & 2022 production. The job got done so it doesn’t matter if it wasn’t as aesthetically pleasing as I would want it to be. As an OC, he should get a pass for 2023 but he should be on a short leash for next year since he had a full year to plan for the possibility of no Rising/Kuithe. Had they both gone down the last week of fall camp, yes it would have been a scramble to shift gears, but they were never cleared to play. I also don’t think the offense improved over the course of the season which falls under his purview.
        
        The position coach aspect is the hardest. Since he would still be OC, you then have to bring in a QB coach and lose a different position coach. Freddie Whitt seems to be doing a good job from the outside. Harding is hit/miss. Ganther looks promising. And Whitted is in a no-win situation trying to make something out of a WR room that is used sparingly as receivers. It would have to be a true home run QB coach to force out one of the others. So no, I’m not going to advocate for what Vandy did. But it wouldn’t be unprecedented.
        
        11/28/2023 at 10:44 AM #206048
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        Xanthis
        Participant
        
        I like both of the defensive line coaches, but we probably could give the whole line to one guy and bring in a QB coach. I don’t know how many teams have a DT coach and DE coach, but Utah does.
        
        11/28/2023 at 4:51 PM #206084
        
        2008 National Champ
        Participant
        
        Every team has 10 position coaches. There are only so many ways to split up the position groups so I doubt that Utah is the only team in the country with a DT and a DE coach.
        
        Part of it comes down to how the positions are named. Teams that run a 2-4-5 will have a DT, Inside Linebacker and an Outside LB coach. Outside LB’s or Edge players have the same role as Utah uses for their DT’s so there is an issue with semantics.
- 11/27/2023 at 7:58 PM #205977
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  noneyadb
  Participant
  
  This is that conversation where stats can prove whatever story it is you want to tell. However the Pac12 has largely underachieved as a whole since 2016. So my question is what elite team/s has a Ludwig QB faced to say he’s good at developing QB’s?
- 11/27/2023 at 10:01 PM #206001
  
  EagleMountainUte
  Participant
  
  This is kind of a chicken and egg arguement.
  
  I look at the Sanders news today and all I can think of is the injuries to Huntley, Rising and Barnes. You can pretty much narrow it to one position group always in need of a TUNE up mid season or come to Jesus moment. Whatever you want to call it. Harding has been given a long enough time to establish why he deserves his coaching position.
  
  Also 8-4 2023 is because of Whittingham/Scalley. In spite of the offense Utah went 8-4.
  
  Barnes hasn’t really developed much of anything as the season progressed and Johnson never got a fair shot. Now we can blame that on Risings indecision or the coaches lack of vision.
  
  Again just leads me to confusion.
  
  But I will never credit 8 wins to the Utah offensive performance of Barnes/Johnson/Rising/Johnson/Barnes/Bottari.
  
  The 2023 offense highlight for me was Barnes against SC and Bottari against Colorado. Which I still don’t get why USC didn’t tackle Barnes on the rush of his to win that SC game.
- 11/27/2023 at 10:06 PM #206002
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  EagleMountainUte
  Participant
  
  Also the games Utah was mostly outclassed in was against very good Olines. Oregon, Washington, OSU and Arizona all have very good blocking schemes keeping their qb upright. Also the decision making by the QB’s is on another level than Utah’s.
  
  All season it seemed like Barnes or Johnson were given a play. Hell it didn’t even seem like they were allowed to make their own reads live in option plays.
  - 11/27/2023 at 10:15 PM #206003
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    stbone
    Participant
    
    Assuming you are correct and they were given the play and had very few options, their limitations prevented them from receiving more latitude. In other words, if they couldn’t even reliably execute under the simplest conditions, it is a fools errand to think they could would have executed better if we placed more demands on them.
    
    It wasn’t the short leash that kept them from being the next Alex Smith, but rather their inability to process and execute at a high level.
    - 11/28/2023 at 11:08 AM #206052
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      EagleMountainUte
      Participant
      
      My biggest complaint in discussing things with people online is the presumptions made. I am not presuming that Bryson Barnes needs to be Alex Smith. In no way have I ever had that expectation.
      
      I am looking at other backup QB’s across the NCAA in 2023 in comparison to Utah’s situation.
      
      Take for example Colorado. They have one of the worst Olines in NCAA history. Yet Staub did reasonably well and seemed to be allowed to make plays downfield. I know the automatic counter point is well he had Hunter to throw to. All his decisions were not pre-scripted events.
      
      Sometimes when you are given a great talent like Johnson and other players you give them a loose lead to showcase their athletic talent.
      
      Again it is a chicken and egg argument. Utah fans can easily blame the talent that the coaching staff brought in because they will say the coaches have done it before with other players like Brian Johnson and Cam Rising or Huntley. I would argue those players became veterans and executed at a higher level during breakdowns in coaching calls.
      - 11/28/2023 at 11:35 AM #206061
        
        stbone
        Participant
        
        You are mistaking hyperbole for a presumption, but it appears as if you are presuming that the short leash is holding BB and NJ back, and but for the short leash, they would be far superior to what they currently are. As evidence, you are pointing to an example of a cherry-picked backup, but for every Staub or Fifita, I can point to 10 backups that didn’t do anything worth mentioning.
        
        You can let backups air it out, and sometimes, good things happen. But, most of the time, it turns into an epic disaster for both the team and the QB (there is usually a reason the backup is not the starter). The most important part of a QB is their mind and confidence. By giving your QB too much leash, you are taking a high stakes risk that will likely lead to injuring (or destroying) their confidence and ultimately destroying them as a QB. Not only that, you are risking your season and your program if you give your backup too much leash. Our perception is pretty much unscathed after this 8-4 season, that would probably not be the case if you added two or three more losses to that total.
        
        The best move, is to play Whit-ball as long as possible to limit mistakes until your QB proves that they are able to process and execute. The best example of this is how Belichik developed Brady – for the first several years, Brady was on an extremely short leash, but he was regularly given more as he proved his competency.
        
        11/28/2023 at 12:32 PM #206070
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        EagleMountainUte
        Participant
        
        This just cements my view more and more that Ludwig doesn’t deserve much credit for the 8 wins.
        Utah won in spite of Ludwig’s best effort in 2023. Doesn’t mean he should be fired or let go. My view is evaluating the way the Oline is being coached. I think that is the primary concern especially with injuries at the QB spot.
        
        11/28/2023 at 1:14 PM #206072
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        stbone
        Participant
        
        Most of the credit should go to Morgan, but it seems like Ludwig should get credit for creating conservative game plans that got the most out of BB and NJ while minimizing mistakes. However, we probably disagree with what NJ and BB had to offer. From what I saw, BB has not yet developed the ability to quickly process the game and is not sufficiently accurate to regularly string together multiple completions. NJ is one of the least accurate QBs I have recently seen. He probably would have thrived in the 90’s era Nebraska or CU offenses, but other than that he presently lacks the requisite skills of a starting quarterback.
        
        Also, below you point out that Devaughn was frequently open, but conclude that BB had a script that prevented him from attempting those passes. Unless you have inside information that this (the script) was the case, I don’t think your analysis is reasonable as I saw BB going through his progressions on occasion. Based on that, I think it is more likely that BB wasn’t able to consistently read the defense and did not go through his progressions fast enough to find (or anticipate) open receivers.
- 11/28/2023 at 10:13 AM #206045
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  Jim Vanderhoof
  Participant
  
  Ludwig runs more of a pro style offense. Zach Wilson met with Ludwig and felt his system would better prepare Isac Wilson for the pros.
  
  We need better WRs. All year we saw the safeties come up for the run. One on one coverage with no help. We can’t get separation. That has to change. Rising coming back should help the run game but we need a couple playmakers at WR.
  - 11/28/2023 at 11:11 AM #206055
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    EagleMountainUte
    Participant
    
    Watch more film. There were wide open guys all season. I disagree strongly. Vele was open a lot! Barnes was given a script and he had to throw to certain guys. It’s why his progressions stunk.
- 11/28/2023 at 10:54 AM #206049
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  Rick
  Participant
  
  I think there are pros and cons of Ludwig. I have been one who has seen the good and bad of his abilities over the years. I would say that this year is probably his best accomplishment. He got us to an 8-4 record largely with Bryson Barnes as our QB. Don’t get me wrong. I love Bryson and I love his story but he is NOT a P5 level QB by any objective measure. Yet, through Ludwig’s game planning and play calling we sit at 8-4. Hell, even last Saturday with our 5th string QB he developed and executed a game plan that won the game. It wasn’t pretty but a W is a W. I would say that his genius is his developing and calling the best plays that fit the abilities of whatever QB he is working with. The one loss where he did not do this was the Oregon State game with Nate. Nate is NOT a pocket passer and he is only effective if the scheme allows for a 50/50 run/pass decision on every play (see the Baylor game). The scheme vs. the Beavs was nothing like that and they beat us good. Beyond that game, Andy called a pretty clean season IMO. Is it conservative? Yes. Is it effective? Yes and our record reflects that given all of our injuries to key players throughout the season.
- 11/28/2023 at 11:58 AM #206064
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  Charlie
  Participant
  
  We can over analyze this year but it may be best to move on. We have a great record for dipping down to QB5. I completely agree with the decision to recruit and try to develop NJ as a QB, it just did not develop a P5 QB. All great programs have QBs that do not develop. We spent zero time this year with QB1 or QB2. QB3 and QB4 did not do well reading and executing with several options and correctly had options reduced with better results, I think. The passing game suffered when TE1 and TE2 were unavailable which has a big impact with the current Utah offense. The passing game, I think, can be improved by better separation. With everything going on this year, first year WR coach Whitted had a poor opportunity to make improvements with the WRs. The RBs were not consistent enough to balance against the passing game. The OL was missing the starting center.
  
  A good OC can fix one of these problems during the season. It is quite uncommon to see an OC deal with as many issues as this to the depth Lud did this year, so what exactly do we compare his performance to? The issue is not one of the smaller aspects, the issue is the unusual numbers of key personnel not available in the big picture. The good news is all of the issues have great chances to improve next year simply with key people returning. On top of that there will be another year of development with players, new recruits and portal transfers. The bowl game will be interesting, however, the spring will be where questions will next be answered.
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