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Colorado Joel Klatt with objective evaluation of The Call
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EagleMountainUte.
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Yergensen
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UteFan Vineyard
ParticipantHe’s right. Unfortunately it doesn’t matter at this point that the refs were wrong.
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RoboUteParticipantEverybody kind of knows this. It’s just cool to s**t on anyone blaming refs.
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The Miami UteParticipantI think everyone here that watched the game pretty much already knew this. The problem is that BYU’s agitprop machine is trying to make it seem as if Utah didn’t have a legitimate complaint.
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Ted Lasso
ParticipantI realize I’m biased, but here’s where I disagree with Klatt. He argued that the call was inconsistent with what the refs had called throughout the game. My question to Klatt, though, is how he knows whether this particular holding call was any more or less egregious than what the refs had seen the entire game.
Terry McAulay, an NFL ref with 19 years of experience, said the following:
“I’ve looked at every pass play in the entire game. Every complete route on the all-22. Nothing even remotely close to defensive holding occurred against either team. Nothing anywhere near the level of material restriction that occurred on the play in question.”
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UM4G
ParticipantIn a discussion about a ref making the wrong call, your argument is to cite another ref…
Stop trying to convince us otherwise, we don’t have to accept it in order to validate your win. It’s starting to feel more like BYU fans are trying to convince themselves it was a good call.
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ladyinredParticipantA simple google search on this Terry Mcauley guy shows that he has been involved in some very controversial calls, so I’m not sure this quote is the flex you seem to think it is.
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Participant
My bad, I’m not trying to flex on you guys, I just worded things poorly. I wish the game didn’t come down to a referee and I’m of the mindset that the refs should swallow their whistle and let the players play. To be honest, I don’t think the holding had any influence on the play itself. It was pretty clear that Jake wasn’t getting rid of the ball and that it would have been a sack either way.
I just mentioned that he was an experienced NFL referee to give him some sort of credibility compared to the average fan. But I get that Terry McAulay might not be the best source either.
I guess the only thing I would add that is probably not a popular opinion here is what about the facemask call in the 2nd quarter that led to your touchdown? To me, it was objectively not a facemask, though I understand how the referee could make that mistake during the game. It definitely looked like one in real time. But wouldn’t it be fair to say that if we give you the holding call, you guys also have to give us the facemask? Again, not a flex on you guys and I want to be respectful, but also want to give a differing opinion.
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2008 National ChampParticipantBoth hockey and soccer have rules where the play doesn’t stop unless the foul creates an advantage for the offending team.
In Hockey, they play on while the offensive team still has the puck inside the blue zone because calling a penalty against the defense and forcing a faceoff hurts the offense. In soccer, a trip behind the play could negate a scoring opportunity. Football, at least pro, leaves it up to the refs discretion to pick up a flag on PI if the ball was deemed uncatchable.
I’ve watched the hold on Vaughn at least 1,000 times by now. The receiver initiated the contact and then ran away. Vaughn reacted to the contact and had some jersey but didn’t impede the receivers progress. By the letter of the law, it’s a hold. But unless the ball is thrown, we can never know if the hold created an advantage for Utah. Because the receiver was back into his route before Retzlaff could have thrown. And it certainly wasn’t a safety issue like a crackback block that should be called anywhere, any time.
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RoboUteParticipant
Both hockey and soccer have rules where the play doesn’t stop unless the foul creates an advantage for the offending team.
I’m all for common sense rules and these are just the types of things that can change.
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The Miami UteParticipant
Terry McAulay? He’s a media personality now trying to validate his existence and expand his brand. Did you know that he has an agent and you can book him for a speaking engagement? And we’re really supposed to believe that he looked at every single play of that game? OK, then.
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Rick
ParticipantWe just need to realize that this is one where every BYU fan sees it one way and every U fan sees it another. Like Klatt says – a 50/50 call. Sucks to be a U fan.
The reality for me is I put it in the category with a handful of other plays – the if only plays
-If Vaughn somehow keeps his hands off the Y receiver Retslaff still takes the sack. I don’t think he had time to even look downfield. If he did, the safety comes over and knocks the ball away or intercepts. If you watch the complete play, you’ll see how well the safety is positioned.
-How about the next play (I think) where the U should have intercepted the ball (game over)
-How about Micah’s dropped touchdown pass (brutal)We had our chances. BYU got a few extra ones and took advantage. Credit them. That field goal kicker is terrific – smiling on the sideline as he’s about to go in and kick the biggest field goal of his life.
Damn Cougs.
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SteelUteParticipantLasso, My question to you is, how do you know that it was more egregious?
You’re gonna argue til (you’re already blue in the face).
It sucks, it sucks for us, but also it sucks for this rivalry that the game was decided by a referee and not a great play by our defensive front to sack your qb. We’re not going to concede that it was a fair call, and that the refs were consistent the whole game. Our argument is that the Big 12 allows so much more contact by DB’s than our previous conference (PAC 12 r.i.p 2023) that it has been a painful adjustment. On top of a lot of other crap that has happened this season, that officiating philosophy has cost us game(s). In my opinion Arizona beat us partially due to how our dbs played and their dbs played. Part of it, but not the only reason. Our db’s are adjusting 8 games in, and now on a moment where our season is about to get a breath of life after being dead on the table for over a month, that ref says “hey now that is too physical!” And to others on here, I know that is the coaches job to teach how to play the right amount of physical, Arizona was in the pac 12 also!
It’s all subjective how you view the play but in my view the contact was made before 5 yards, the contact didn’t completely impede him and the player kept running. Besides that, let players make plays, especially as Klatt points out, there had only been one P.I called all game!!
On a separate note, can we have some sort of technology that indicates when a coach calls a timeout! There’s not much else that p**ses me off in a game when that play clock goes to 00 flags fly for delay of game and two seconds later a ref comes running out onto the field announcing a ghost timeout. I swear half the time they give the offense the benefit of the doubt. That would be a great addition to the game! The timeout after we were going to sack him in the end zone was another WTF moment that led to such anger and feeling cheated. Did Sitake get the Timeout called in time? Probably, but can’t we get a button on their belt or something that signals to the ref and the booth? We put a man on the moon for hells sake!-
2008 National ChampParticipant
On a separate note, can we have some sort of technology that indicates when a coach calls a timeout! There’s not much else that p**ses me off in a game when that play clock goes to 00 flags fly for delay of game and two seconds later a ref comes running out onto the field announcing a ghost timeout.
Better option might be to not let a TO be called with 2 seconds or less on the clock. The coach can let the ref know that he wants to run the clock to 1 second left and take a TO. But this last second running on to the field because your team was lined up wrong or you saw something from the sidelines too late needs to end. Any time someone doesn’t hear the whistle and hits someone who did and stopped, there is an unnecessary injury risk.
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Holladay Ute
ParticipantI don’t buy this. You’re telling me some random former NFL referee re-watched the entire game and graded every route just b/c? And he didn’t find a single route where similar contact was made, i.e. the refs were perfect in what is the most difficult part of the game to referee? Has there ever been a game anywhere where referees perfectly officiated WR/DB coverage? Bull crap. From the rest of his tweets, it’s pretty clear that he was up in arms about the referee criticism from Harlan and Whitt in their postgame comments. If he actually did re-watch the entire game (I doubt it), he did it w/ a biased set of eyes and found what he was looking for (like we all are). His opinion is subjective and biased like all of us. I just barely watched a few minutes of replay highlights on YouTube and I already found multiple plays that look similar to me (handsy contact from both teams). Everyone is gonna have an opinion. If the roles were reversed here, BYU fans would be outraged as well.
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Participant
You make some solid points, I think you’re right that he’s probably not being objective.
And you are correct that BYU fans would be outraged as well. My pushback to you would be the blown facemask call in the second quarter that led to Utah’s touchdown. Objectively, it was not a facemask. The refs got it wrong. If the refs got the holding call wrong, wouldn’t it also be fair to concede that the facemask call was wrong too?
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2008 National ChampParticipant
We have conceded the facemask. Even though the initial contact at or near the helmet which made Rose’s head turn is typically an indicator of either facemask or illegal hands to the helmet. In the PAC, we had a player ejected for targeting for less than that facemask. You can’t go high on a QB as another parochial school defender found out a couple of plays later. That is going to get flagged every time.
Defensive holding is not something that gets called a lot. Which is why you have to ask what was different about that play? And the only thing anyone can come up with is the time on the clock and the game situation.
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stbone
ParticipantTo the facemask – there are only two people who know what happened, Rose and the DE. Based on the head movement, including after Rose was on the ground, something was grabbed. What I think happened is, in the replays you can see the DE’s hand contact Roses helmet near the earhole at about the jaw line. I suspect, based on Rose’s head movement, that the DE grabbed his chin strap. The only other possibility is that Rose has been training himself for years to replicate facemask-style head movements while being sacked.
To your bigger point, the difference between the facemask and the hold is, anytime any QB head moves like that during a tackle, a facemask will be called. On the flip side, the hold on Vaughn was the type that has rarely been called in the Big12 this year. This combined with the phantom holding call on King leaves a strong impression that the game was delivered to BYU. Of course Utah could have done more to not leave the game up to the refs, but that is a bit of weird victim blaming intentionally ignoring the fact that those two calls ended up deciding the game. Put another way, those calls were necessary for BYU to win, and BYU can’t win without those calls.
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Participant
Well if you look at the replay, there are 2 angles that you can see where Glasker’s hands are on Rose. In both angles, he was close to the helmet, but he was not grabbing the face mask at all. I get why the ref called it, it looked like a face mask with the way his head turned, but it was not one. The bad call led to a touchdown for Utah. I would argue the game would’ve looked a lot different had that call not been made. BYU likely would’ve gotten a stop and would have had more time to go score before halftime. To Utah’s credit, they took advantage and scored a touchdown. BYU had 50 yards to stop them and couldn’t get it done.
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Participant
Grabbing any part of the helmet, including the chinstrap is a face masking penalty. A copy of the rule is below:
“No player shall grasp and then twist, turn or pull the face mask, chin strap or any helmet opening of an opponent. It is not a foul if the face mask, chin strap or helmet opening is not grasped and then twisted, turned or pulled. When in question, it is a foul.”
It is interesting to note the last sentence stating that if it is in question, then it is a foul. Under the plain reading of the rule, and how it the rule is actually enforced, this was 100% the right call. Nothing phantom about it.
Also, you can see the hand on the helmet as I described at about 12 seconds in the attached clip.
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Participant
To the facemask – there are only two people who know what happened, Rose and the DE. Based on the head movement, including after Rose was on the ground, something was grabbed. What I think happened is, in the replays you can see the DE’s hand contact Roses helmet near the earhole at about the jaw line. I suspect, based on Rose’s head movement, that the DE grabbed his chin strap. The only other possibility is that Rose has been training himself for years to replicate facemask-style head movements while being sacked.
To your bigger point, the difference between the facemask and the hold is, anytime any QB head moves like that during a tackle, a facemask will be called. On the flip side, the hold on Vaughn was the type that has rarely been called in the Big12 this year. This combined with the phantom holding call on King leaves a strong impression that the game was delivered to BYU. Of course Utah could have done more to not leave the game up to the refs, but that is a bit of weird victim blaming intentionally ignoring the fact that those two calls ended up deciding the game. Put another way, those calls were necessary for BYU to win, and BYU can’t win without those calls.
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Warrior UteParticipantI think one if the big difference is the situation in which they were called. If the facemask wasn’t called the Utes would have been at 2nd and 18. They were moving the ball at that time and in the next 2 plays moved the ball 15 or 16 yards. Would the finish of the run been more aggressive if they only need a yard or two? It’s likely
If the holding hadn’t been called there would have been a turnover on downs and the Utes could have kneeled down to win the game.
Bad calls happen on both sides. Some are more impactful. A questionable, inconsistent call at that point, with that impact so bad.
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Participant
But at 2nd and 18, Utah probably has to throw the ball, which they weren’t able to do much of last game. The momentum is also a factor. BYU still likely gets the stop, but we’ll never know.
The holding, I don’t think we know if it was inconsistent or not. Terry McAulay seems to insist that the holding in question was more egregious than what was happening all night. And who’s to say that Retzlaff doesn’t throw it to the WR that was being held? He was his first read. I don’t know because I haven’t watched all the plays myself.
Anyways, I’ll stop now because it’s one of those situations where byu fans will always believe it was a hold whereas Utah fans will think otherwise. Thanks for the back and forth
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2008 National ChampParticipant
It’s enough that we’re evenly split on the call. Let’s not do alternate reality timelines on what everything thinks would have happened if a certain call had been different. Take the win and move on
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BDParticipantJoe Klatt says one thing. Terry McAulay says the opposite. On X, I’ve seen a lot of diverse opinions, some from just casual fans, and a few that might be more than a fan and whose opinion might mean more – but I forgot to bookmark those. Just a casual observance, the more they get away from the XII, the more they say the penalty should not have been called, with a few exceptions, and the more they are in the XII the more they think it was an “obvious” foul – probably because of their love affair with BYU (with a few exceptions).
Both sides of this are being expressed by many.
Which, of course, makes the solid point that the call was controversial and not obvious.
Still, we should have stopped them. Scalley has to work on this part of the defense – stop the opponent near the end of the game when it absolutely matters because we’ve been burned several times on this now – Arizona, ASU, Houston, and now BYU. And this really is the issue.
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Participant
Agreed that we have problems and we shouldn’t have been in a position to allow the officials to influence the outcome, but I don’t put it on the defense. Scalley and the defense have a backache from carrying this team all year. If the offense averages 24 pts per game like last year’s juggernaut we are 8-1.
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BDParticipant
Totally, and forgive me if it seemed like I was trying to place the blame away from the offense. That wasn’t my intention. But I assume Scalley will take a look at that part of the defense anyway and try to address it – the competitor that he is will demand every area that needs improvement actually improves.
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RickParticipantHas anyone seen when the flag was actually thrown vs. when their QB was smothered by 4 Utes and then sacked? That would be very interesting if anyone has made that comparison.
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hbUteParticipant@Rick – see this posting:
Reply To: It was an obvious hold
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The Miami UteParticipant
I’ve been perusing a few Big 12 sites on YouTube and I’ve identified a major problem. It seems, at least to me, that the entire narrative is being dictated by BYU fans or BYU fans pretending to be Utah fans. I’ve seen plenty of so-called Utah fans making statements like “We’re so embarrassed at our AD and you’re so right to call him out. We hope Utah fires him.” I mean, what real Utah fan says crap like that. And then, there’s the plague of BYU fans making comments like “See, we told you they were like this. You never should have allowed Utah in the Big XII. Trust us, we know…we’ve been living with Utah all our lives. It only gets worse. We’re the good Utah reps, they’re the hypocritical bad ones.” I’m ready to start a GoFundMe page to source Utah’s move into the PAC.
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NarfUteParticipantI want Harlan fired for reasons other than what happened Saturday, so put me in that camp 😂
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EagleMountainUteParticipantI have wanted Harlan fired before this.
But his behavior after that game is not just a straw to break the camels back. It is a RPG to the back.
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Participant
I am fine with what Harlan did. (to me, being upset with what he said/did is a form of ton-policing that focuses on style over substance). There is absolutely no accountability for referees, and he did what he could. The fact that nobody else goes full-Harlan is part of what has brought us to this point.
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2008 National ChampParticipant
There is a mechanism for officiating accountability but it is not public so we never know it happens unless it was so bad it can’t be hidden like the SC/WSU targeting game on a Friday night. The conference had to acknowledge their staff members were involved in real time in the outcome.
Otherwise, the teams have to submit clips of plays they think were called wrong to the league office knowing that there is no recourse but hoping that a future call won’t be the same.
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Participant
So, effectively, there is no recourse, and there is no accountability. The lack of accountability is particularly surprising in the world of sports where accountability is king.
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2008 National ChampParticipant
That’s not really what I said but if you equate “we won’t know what accountability measures are taken” with “no accountability”, I can’t prove otherwise.
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Jim Vanderhoof
ParticipantRefs have the right to pick up the flag if they don’t feel it had any effect on the play. Retzlaf had no chance to even throw the ball. It’s all water under the bridge and we missed a pick 6 I think the next play. Winning teams find ways to win losing teams find ways to lose.
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Participant
Our DB’s missing pick 6s has now cost us two games (Houston being the other). We seem to be afraid to make big plays.
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2008 National ChampParticipant
I’m less concerned with the picks, even though I’d like more, than I am the fumbles. Utah has recovered two of 11 this year which puts them at minus 3.5 on the luck meter. Bounces going your way is usually a big indicator in the type of season your team is having.
I keep coming back to the Retzlaff fumble around his own 10 that they were able to get back on. Being able to come up with that ball almost guarantees you at least 3 points and is a huge momentum changer when the offense is struggling. Getting the stop is a good thing and not to be discounted. But we haven’t really seen those game changing moments out of the D since.,, Baylor?
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The Miami UteParticipant
Yeap, but the good thing is that you can flip the script from one season to the next. Now more than ever…
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Whoops
Participanthttps://x.com/HouseofBYU/status/1855545278792966513?t=W4VT4-eVGAsRgHwx3reFhw&s=19
https://x.com/AndySplatz/status/1855528391015108740?t=3dNtOW6gdxX6YjIo3s9c4g&s=19
Looks pretty ticky tacky, the receiver seems to be running his route freely. -
EagleMountainUteParticipant
It is far from objective analysis. Comparing defensive PI to holding isn’t exactly apples to apples imo.
Big12 absolutely has been neglecting Defensive PI all season. Arizona game was probably the most egregious game.
Holding has a pretty clear definition on how it is called.
From a fan perspective I don’t trust the officials Utah has had to make an objective call. It goes both ways to and so that is where it makes Harlan and Whittingham look like fools.
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