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Utah Interesting social experiment
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- This topic has 38 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 9 months ago by
UtahFanSir.
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zeousParticipant -
HoosierUteParticipantSTRAWMAN ALERT! So as a society we shouldnt shelter the homeless. treat addicts, etc. unless every single person is willing to do it in thier own homes?
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zeousParticipant
“As a society, we should”… Is that code for “someone else should, just not me”?
Seems pretty reasonable to me that if you support something, you are willing to bear the cost. Saying that other people should bear the cost is not really supporting a thing, in my opinion. Virtue signal fail.
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Anonymous
InactiveDunford chocolate cake donuts. The breakfast choice of champions everywhere
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SkinyUteParticipantI am very willing to bear the cost, by donating to causes and supporting legislation which allows refugees to have their own places to live.
They wouldn’t want to live with me anyways…my house is a mess. 😉
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zeousParticipant
You realize that “legislation” translates to “someone else bears the cost” by force, right?
But that’s great if you support directly of your own free will, in my opinion. And for those who wish not to, I think that is their right as free people.
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SkinyUteParticipant
Yes, I’m aware. And as a member of a functional society (and in an attempt to be a non-s**tty human being), I’ll gladly chip in that $1.00 per year in extra taxes so that families fleeing a war-torn hellhole might have an opportunity for a decent life here.
But by all means, please feel free to be angry about that dollar because it encroaches on your freedoms, or whatever.
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zeousParticipant
Naive worldview, but much appreciate the holier-than-thou attitude. Thanks. You are super non-s**tty, as everyone can plainly see.
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SkinyUteParticipant
Sorry, didn’t mean to interrupt your daily panic attack about the scary Muslims coming to take your Freedoms (TM).
By all means, please continue.
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Newbomb TurkParticipantAnd yet they call the liberals “snowflakes”….
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Inactive
Hey newbomb maybe we can crowd fund purchasing some minkie couter blankets so that Trump, Zeous et al can have thier very own sanctuary safe space
and I’d like it duly noted that I did not start this political trolling thread nor did I give it any serious responses. Well the part about breathing underwater and knowing things was true
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zeousParticipant
I could respond with something on your level, like…
“Typical totalitarian child. Talk tough and expect others to back it up. If you want refugees living with you, by all means… make it happen. But f**k you if you want to force me to do it. Calling me scared behind the wall of anonymous internet is super courageous, moral supremacist totalitarian weakling.”
But instead, I’ll brush it off and say “Go Utes! Have a nice day.”
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SkinyUteParticipant
Well, except…you just did. It was a valiant attempt at achieving moral supremacy though.
But you’re right. Go Utes, and have a nice day.
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SkinyUteParticipant
One other clarification. I never said I wanted refugees living “with me” (as in, “in my house”), which is what you seem to be implying. Hell, I don’t want anyone living “with me” except my family…and even that’s a stretch some days. I wouldn’t expect me, you, or anyone else to be housing complete strangers unless they specifically volunteered to do so.
However, that is a far cry from banning all refugees simply out of the fear that they’re going to be “bad hombres”. I’ll gladly accept them in the country (after a thorough vetting process, which they go through), help them to escape the horrors they are experiencing, and give them an opportunity to succeed through hard work just like anyone else.
I guess I fail to see how that’s “forcing” you to do much of anything, except not be an a-hole to another human being because they didn’t happen to be born here.
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zeousParticipant
The strawman returneth. <Sigh>
“With”, “next door”, “on your street”… in close enough proximity that your wife and daughters will regularly encounter them over time as the percentage grows within your neighborhood. If you are completely unaware of the teachings of Mohammed/Allah/whatever and the political strategies of sharia, then educate yourself. Or remain ignorant. Your choice.
Anyone can be decent to live around IF THEY CHOOSE TO BEHAVE THAT WAY. If they, however, believe things that make being good neighbors impossible (unless all neighbors convert or submit to islam for example), then that’s a problem. Most Americans don’t want others trying to force their beliefs or values on them, whatever they are. Freedom *FROM* religion > freedom of religion.
Not everyone believes in “live and let live”. Not everyone believes in treat others the way you expect to be treated. Some ideologies are unbashful about contrary values like “convert, submit, or die”. Individuals who believe things like that would not make good neighbors, in my opinion.
Might they, if they changed their mind and adopted a more “live and let live” value system? Sure. But how realistic is that expectation of change? If you look at Europe now, and any country that has transitioned over time from minority muslim to majority… well, just take a look at it. Don’t be afraid to investigate beyond what your tv tells you.
So no, I don’t want that incompatible ideology taking root in my backyard, nor do I wish to be forced to pay for their transport, their housing, their food, their education, their ongoing welfare, none of it. I’d love to see them reform it amongst themselves, but do so in their timeout corner on the other side of the world, and prove to the world that they can behave and be civilized.
And more importantly, DC should stop dropping bombs on them and making them refugees in the first place.
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SkinyUteParticipant
Me, my wife, and my daughter live around/interact with/play with/work with plenty of Muslim people, thank you very much (tends to happen when you spend the past 15 years in diversity and civil rights training). If any of these folks want to kill us, I have to admit that they’re doing an awfully good job of hiding it.
Even knowing plenty about the more extreme parts of their ideology, I refuse to paint all Muslims as people to be feared, screaming “death to the infidel” at every opportunity. The vast majority are average Joes like you and me, for whom beheadings and honor killings are equally as horrific an idea. If you want to live your life in fear of the minority who are extreme enough to actually act on those ideals, then more power to you. I have the feeling you’ll be in the minority of Americans in that respect, but maybe I’m just too hopeful for the values we represent as a nation. I suppose you’d claim that makes me “ignorant” or some such, but I doubt I’ll lose any sleep over that.
And more importantly, DC should stop dropping bombs on them and making them refugees in the first place.
On that we certainly agree, at least.
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zeousParticipant
Interesting. Are you muslim, by chance?
The civilized ones need to publicly shame, condemn and vilify all those who embrace the unacceptable, uncivil beliefs. Wouldn’t you agree? Why don’t they?
I do not fear any ideology, for the record. I think you do though, and you project that fear by assuming I fear s**tty ideas from the stone age.
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SkinyUteParticipant
No, I’m not Muslim. Atheist here.
The civilized ones need to publicly shame, condemn and vilify all those who embrace the unacceptable, uncivil beliefs. Wouldn’t you agree? Why don’t they?
They do. All the damn time (Those are literally the first four Google hits. Feel free to do your own search). It’s unfortunate that no one pays attention yet still loudly demands that they denounce the actions every time they happen.
I think you do though, and you project that fear by assuming I fear s**tty ideas from the stone age.
LOL…ooooookay. I won’t even attempt to guess at the thought process that could lead you to that conclusion.
For someone who doesn’t have any fear, you sure seem awfully insistent on continually ensuring that everyone here knows how bad and evil you think Muslims are, and how you feel strongly that they need to stay on the other side of the world.
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zeousParticipant
Meh. Corporate media owned by Saudi Arabia and other oil gazillionaires with political ambitions. Explain reformers like Ayaan Hirsi Ali under constant death threat for speaking out against islam, and others like her.
And explain all the non-integrated colonies all over Europe and the associated crime and attacks. Explain the insistence on halal whatever food in schools and stores (separation of church and state, anyone?).
No thanks, Saudi Arabia can take in the refugees, they have a lot more money anyway. Or you can if you like, rent them a place next door to you with your own money. Fine by me. But if they commit crimes, it’s on you as their sponsor.
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SkinyUteParticipant
I’m amused at how you handwave away any sources provided, yet consistently label anyone who dares call out your blatantly biased propaganda pieces as “ignorant” and “cowards”.
You just keep being you, man.
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zeousParticipant
And you keep ignoring questions you can’t answer, arguing with deception, and projecting your fears on others.
Appeals to authority are logically fallacious. Why don’t you move to a muslim country and diversify it over there a bit? 99% same religion? Lulz, how pathetically non-diverse.
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Riot WestParticipantLulz, how pathetically non-diverse
Says the guy from Utah….
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zeousParticipant
Yeah, that’s how pathetically non-diverse it is over there. Utah is orders of magnitude more diverse. Pathetic.
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SkinyUteParticipant
No thanks, there’s plenty of work to do here. Obviously.
I’ll admit to being a little curious why you seem to think tribalism is entirely unique to Muslim populations, although I suspect I have a pretty good idea.
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zeousParticipant
I don’t. Your constant strawmen and re-frames get really boring really quickly.
I think you really need to focus elsewhere, where there’s a lack of diversity. Diversity is strength after all, right? Please, strengthen up those non-diverse places like islamic countries, latin american countries, asian countries, and african countries. They desperately need your help. Oh, and Israel. Very non-diverse place. Please help them.
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SkinyUteParticipant
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UtahFanSirParticipantHard to do, but our church does run a Backdoor Cafe to feed the homeless. We have recently added shower facilities for them, and have a laundry mission, where we pay for their laundry to be done (we do not give them money to do it themselves). We have started to do some counseling, in part to find out if they are sick (and need medical treatment), mentally ill, and if they are even capable of work. If they are capable of work, we try to find an employer who is willing to give them a shot.
This year has been one of the hardest winters in 30 here in Central Oregon, and the homeless have been particularly hard hit. This mission at Bend Church, First Methodist is gaining more support, even from neighboring congregations, and is moving toward year 10. But the services are building, while the number of homeless seems to be growing too.
Bethlehem Inn is another church sponsored group in our town that provides a warm room and food. I’ve volunteered there too. They have a policy that if folks hit the street with a sign, asking for money, they are out. The Inn provides everything they require to be safe, healthy, and to get back on their feet. The reason for this policy is that it was found that recipients wanted money for what the Inn does not provide, drugs, alcohol and cigarettes.
Bringing these folks into your home is an unnecessary risk to one’s family. Some folks in our congregation have tried it, and almost always, it does not end well. Homeless folks are really desperate, and ones safety most be at the forefront.
But a decision to want to help but not offer one’s own sanctuary does not mean the problems and costs to society go away. There has been considerable research on the social costs to states of the homeless. It has been found that a small percentage of homeless, like 10 or 15%, consume 70 to 75% of a state’s Medicaid budget. It has been found that housing the homeless, dramatically reduces their net social costs. A move is afoot to get the housing of homeless to be considered a doctor’s prescription and an important first step to proper evaluation and remediation.
I really don’t think pointing fingers at “liberals” who are empathetic but unwilling to house the homeless is constructive. But the issues and problems here are endemic, real, growing, and costly to society. Below are a few studies in case anyone is really interested in the magnitude of this problem.
A 2015 Literature Review on the Subject…
Containing Medicaid Costs by Housing Homeless…
Hospital Offers Frequent ER Patients An Out Free Housing
NY Debates Homeless Housing Should Be Considered Healthcare…
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UtebeamParticipantSolution to Bringing Down Costs of Homelessness
The above was from Malcom Gladwell, the Author of, “Tipping Point” and several other great books. He basically states that the costs of homelssness can be significantly decreased by working with the few that had been on the streets the longest. If you give them a place to stay(not in your home) and provide extra help with their needs it will dramatically decrease the costs associated with them going to the hospital due to all of the medical needs the longterm homeless seem to have. Interesting read if you have a spare 15 minutes.
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Utahute72ParticipantHow about we rephrase your strawman alert to read: Government should act as robin hood and forcibly take money from one class of citizens to support bad behavior by another class of citizens. I’m not saying we shouldn’t care, but we need to have a serious discussion about how we solve the problem.
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Riot WestParticipant
Government should act as robin hood and forcibly take money from one class of citizens to support bad behavior by another class of citizens
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! You know, like it already steals from the middle class to allow the Trump-types to pay little to no taxes.
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UtahFanSirParticipant
Except in a number of ways that the so called one class contributed to putting them there…
The operative word is “contributed”. We all must have personal responsibility, no matter how stacked the deck. And the deck is stacked.
So let the middle class pay for this, again. And again. And again.
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Inactive
I breathe underwater. I know things divers go deeper
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GubaParticipantWhen I managed an apartment complex we took in a quite a few refugee families. They were some of my best tenants. They are worked very hard to get established in a new country and were extremely grateful to have a new start away from war and violence. They had all spent many years in refugee camps and were ready to get on with their lives. Very wonderful people.
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Inactive
Don’t mention that to Zeous and Trump et al. It ruins their narrative
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Utahute72Participant
I’m with the Dennis Miller approach to immigration. “I don’t care if the come, but is it too much to ask them to sign the guest register on the way in.” I’ve long thought we needed to fix the whole range of problems with immigration, including streamlining the process where possible, ensuring we can weed out the bad actors, securing the borders (yes both of them), developing a process to track visa holders (that was an issue with the Boston bombers) and developing processes to help ensure those that come have some kind of support system.
I do find it ironic that supports of unfettered immigration point to the statue of liberty and as the reason we HAVE to allow them in. The statue is located on Ellis Island. Ellis Island was a holding facility where immigrants were vetted prior to being allowed in the country and many were turned around for anything from criminal records to health issues. Back in those days you have to have a sponsor and some kind of offer of employment to enter the country. Maybe something we should consider today.
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SkinyUteParticipant
Can we PLEASE stop pretending there is no vetting process for refugees and that they are just “walking in the door”? There is already an exhaustive 12-18 month process in place (that’s from the conservative Heritage Foundation, btw. Here’s a similar report from CBS.) for vetting refugees.
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GubaParticipant
The article actually glosses over the UNHCR step. UNHCR conducts an extensive investigation to ensure that the refugee claim is actually legitimate based on a set of standards which must be met. In many cases they turn people away as they do not meet standards for a refugee claim and thus cannot stay in the refugee camp. If their claim is accepted then they can wait any number of years in a camp before accepting nations allow them to migrate. Some have little chance of leaving the camps due to lack of documentation, lack of witnesses to corroborate their story, or other factors such as contracting a disease which prevents resettlement. And even if they go through all of the UNHCR and State Dept steps they still need a sponsoring organization like Catholic Community Services to help them complete the resettlement process. The current process is already “extreme vetting” and there is no one just walking into the country.
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