Additional Benefits to Building That Wall

[Anonymous]

Aside from cutting down on illegal immigration and their progeny which represents future Democrat voting block, we get the added benefit of population control amongst existing Democrats on this side of the wall:

http://dailyusaupdate.com/college-kids-pledge-remove-genitals-trump-builds-wall/

It’s a stroke of genius I say.

[Tony (admin)]

Darwin awards.

[PorterRockwell]

yeah people never get longer ladders or ropes or tunnel under walls.  Fences and locks do nothing but help honest people stay honest

[UteThunder]

Well then, let’s just not even try to secure the border if it’s only going to keep the good guys out . . .

Maybe I’ll stop locking my front door, I mean, it’s only going to keep the honest people from robbing me, right?  

[PorterRockwell]

That any what I said.  One would think that drones and interdiction teams along the borders would be more cost effective than spending billions on a static wall.  

Think of the jobs that approach could provide 

how do you thnk drug runners get the drugs here?  They have tunnels under the border  how deep do we have to build that wall to make it effective? 

Think outside the box 

[UteThunder]

“Fences and locks do nothing but help honest people stay honest”

You literally just said that. What am I missing here?

As for drones and interdiction teams, don’t we already have those? And how are they doing at keeping the drug runners out? How much more effective would they be if instead of a chain link fence we had Trump’s wall?

Is a wall a full-proof way of preventing all illegal entry into this country? No, of course not.

Would it help prevent a lot more of the illegal entry into this country? Yes, and it’s not even debatable

[PorterRockwell]

People find ways under over and around walls  I don’t know if we have the interdiction teams and drones or not for border security 

I’m just not seeing the wall as the most cost effective measure to stop illegal immigrants  

 

what makes you believe that a static wall that can be climbed, tunneled under, etc will be effective?

 

 

 

 

 

[UteThunder]

Resources. Skills. Time.

How many illegal immigrants have the necessary resources, skills, and time to tunnel under, climb over, or go around a large wall? Of those who have the resources, skills, and time, how many can get those resources to a remote location in the desert so they can use them? How much more time and skill is it going to take to tunnel under, climb over, or go around a large wall without being detected than what it currently takes to climb a chain link fence or swim across a canal?

The wall would deter a great deal of illegal immigration just due to the increased level of difficulty for getting in. For those who still make the attempt, the process would be so difficult and time consuming that a greater percentage of illegal immigrants would be caught before making it in. 

Building a giant wall probably isn’t the most cost-effective method of preventing illegal immigration, but it would likely be the most effective method. 

[PorterRockwell]

You win. You’re right. 

[UtahFanSir]

For one, I would like to see the pursuit of folks with stolen SSNs. These folks are known but to my knowledge, there is no tracking these folks down. Maybe SS needs the illgotten funds to payout legal folks. But there is a way right now that requires removing the firewall of SS to get to these illegals. If you can’t get a job in the Land of Plenty, why come?

[Puget Ute]

They will get the resources because we will pay them to build the wall.

[Anonymous]

This is one issue where I differ with Trump. He needs to walk back the wall message. It should be an “economic wall”. Eliminate the financial incentives, entitlements, and enforce the laws already on our books and they will leave. The recent estimates I’ve seen say that California spends $25 billion a year on illegal immigrants, yet they couldn’t find $200 million to spend on fixing faulty spillways on a dam. Get the priorities straight and the illegal immigration problem from Mexico will fix itself.

[SkinyUte]

A significant part of “enforcing the existing laws” would mean enforcing those laws against employers who employ illegal labor.

Funny how that’s always such a non-starter in this discussion.

[89ute]

That would be wonderful … IF California would be WILLING to eliminate the financial incentives.

[SkinyUte]

Could you elaborate? I’m just not sure which financial incentives you’re referring to.

[Newbomb Turk]

What financial incentives?

[Anonymous]

I’ll start off with all the aid for women with infant children. Renew the aid every 5 years with an “anchor baby”. You’ll single Mexican mothers with 5 children spanning 25 years. Enforce the requirement to have auto insurance. I have been hit by 7 uninsured Mexicans which is a direct cost to ME. Penalize employers for hiring illegal aliens, they push down wages. Impose a tax on U.S. Dollars sent out of the country by illegals. It wasn’t taxed as earned income, tax it as a foreign distribution. I could on, but in general the illegals operate largely on cash commerce and pay no taxes, yet they are heavy users of infrastructure and services which we give away.

[Newbomb Turk]

I agree that employers need to be held liable for hiring illegals. I would like to see some data behind the “5 kids in 25 years”. You made is sound like every Mexican woman does that.

[SkinyUte]

I’ll start off with all the aid for women with infant children. Renew the aid every 5 years with an “anchor baby”. You’ll single Mexican mothers with 5 children spanning 25 years.

I’d echo Newbomb’s question about some data around that. I’d wager that’s the exception rather than the norm, but I could be wrong.

Call it my bleeding heart, but I really struggle with the whole idea of “let’s let infants starve because their parents did something bad”. Regardless of whether the parents are undocumented or not. We’re better than that.

Enforce the requirement to have auto insurance. I have been hit by 7 uninsured Mexicans which is a direct cost to ME.

OK, but this is hardly an issue unique to undocumented immigrants. I’ve been hit by three uninsured non-mexicans.

Penalize employers for hiring illegal aliens, they push down wages.

Agreed, although it’ll never happen.

I could on, but in general the illegals operate largely on cash commerce and pay no taxes, yet they are heavy users of infrastructure and services which we give away.

Neither does Trump, by his own admission.

[UtahFanSir]

I agree. Furthermore, by the time this fixed defense is in place, the bill to us taxpayers will likely be 3 to 4 times higher.

I might suggest that every 200 to 300 miles or so, a Trump resort be built atop The Wall, kind of like the Great Wall of China, so that it will pay for itself, well, for Trump. The wall could have walking path, swimming pools, bowling allys, race tracks, even a shooting range, stuff like that. Could make America great again.

 

 

[UteThunder]

By the way, do you consider people who enter this country ILLEGALLY, even if they are otherwise law abiding citizens after they get here, to be honest? 

I ask because your posts seem to imply that Trump’s wall would only keep the non-criminals from entering this country illegally. Well, isn’t that a worthwhile venture? Preventing illegal immigration? 

[PorterRockwell]

Pssst if they are here illegally isn’t it s given that they are at least dishonest about that ?  

I think Utah’s better half said something to the effect of I don’t fear the single mom with three kids trying to build her and her family a better life here nearly as much as the weekend warriors here 

and again why and how will the wall be most effective?  Do you believe Mexico will pay for it? 

This is a 21st century problem and our govt wants to apply an 18th century “solution” 

 

[UteThunder]

Pssst, you missed the point.

I’m saying the wall would keep a great deal of illegal immigrants out. So unless you consider illegal immigrants to be honest, then “fences and locks” will do more than just keep the honest people honest.

I don’t believe mexico will pay for it, however, I do think it is possible a deal could be negotiated to get them to share the cost.

And while it is the 21st century, when it comes to protecting land from millions of people, an “18th century solution” is going to be the best option. Or do you have a better idea? Drones would be laughably ineffective. What are they supposed to do? Circle above a group of 5 immigrants for 3-5 hours before the border patrol agents can arrive to apprehend them?   

[PorterRockwell]

Dude you win the wall is the best idea and I’m sure Mexico will help pay for it because there’s no benefit to their illegals coming here and getting jobs that some Americans won do and sending money back to Mexico and I’m sure that 100% of the illegals are from Mexico so problem solved. Congrats on your win! 

[UteThunder]

Leftist asks questions and gets a response.

Leftist doesn’t like the response he is getting but lacks any kind of a rebuttal with substance to it so he resorts to condescension and sarcasm.

Have I logged in to utefans.net?

At least you didn’t go for the trifecta and resort to personal attacks, so kudos for that.

[PorterRockwell]

Or I realized your mind is made up with statements like it’s not debatable etc so continuing the discussion with you is pointless.  Condescending was not intended. Sarcasm was.   Mexico has zero reason to negotiate any sort of deal where they help fund the wall. Utah pointed out the other day that we should be helping these countries build their own economies and help them reach sustainable self sufficiency.  That would be a better investment than a wall. If people in Mexico and South America countries had decent economies would they be as compelled to come up here? Probably not b

 You’ve determined that the wall is the best answer  seems you don’t want to consider other options 

couple posters below found some factual rebuttals for you 

[UteThunder]

Oh, but your mind is an open canvas ready to be swayed by logic and reason? Give me a break and get off your high horse while you are at it.

You’re mind is as made-up against the wall as you accuse me of being made-up in favor of it.

I would love to consider other options but you’re not presenting any; at least not any that are realistic or an improvement over what we are already doing. WestSlope offered up a great non-wall idea that I would love to see implemented.

[PorterRockwell]

West slope and Utah fan sir are correct.  Want the illegals from Mexico to leave? Fine the people that hire them illegally and pay them under the table.  They would t come here if they couldn’t get tax free work

but that won’t happen because the employers will continue to hire the cheapest labor possible 

[UtahFanSir]

Well, if banning guns means that only criminals will have guns, then building The Wall means that only criminal illegals will come to the New America. And they will come.

[KiYi-Ute]

40% of illegal immigrants are people who come here by plane and outstay their visas.

So no, I don’t think $21 Billion for a wall is a sound investment.

[SkinyUte]

^^ What he said, and I’ve read a number of sites that say that estimate might actually be a bit low.

How about a path to legal immigration to make these people citizens and contributors to the tax base?
How about cracking down on the employers who use undocumented immigrant labor?

There’s lots of things that can be done outside of a $20 billion monument to Trump’s ego.

[PorterRockwell]

Yeah but think of all the labor and contractors needed to build the wall. Is Haliburton still around do they do walls? Does Trump have any friends with nice businesses who could use the work?

[Puget Ute]

Trump probably has a few dozen construction companies that will work on the wall.

[UteThunder]

So 60% illegally cross the border? 

I wonder, over the course of a decade, how many billions of dollars do those 60% cost U.S. taxpayers in social services and criminal behavior? I’m guessing that $21 Billion would be offset pretty quickly if the U.S. government was able to drop the number of illegal immigrants entering this country each year by 60%. 

[Jumpmasterute]

^^^ THIS ^^^

[SkinyUte]

Two thoughts:

1. $21 billion is just the initial cost to build, and likely a very low estimate at that (I.e. doesn’t include building over mountain terrain). The maintenance costs would be huge as well. Just the current fence costs $274 million per year to maintain. Estimates for wall maintenance run anywhere from $500-$750 million per year, depending on which report you read.
2. The idea that a giant wall will somehow drop illegal immigration to zero is certainly…interesting.

[Stradlater]

^^^ THIS ^^^

[Puget Ute]

They cross the border LEGALLY on a LEGAL visa. And then stay after it expires.

And people who know they are here illegally are far less likely to use social services. And they are far less likely to even call the cops.

[Anonymous]

Then they should have been turned around by airport screening and deported.

[SkinyUte]

How does airport screening factor in when someone comes here on a legit work visa and overstays it?

[Puget Ute]

Apparently the airport should say, “I know you are coming in here legally today, but 18 months from now I think you aren’t going to leave on time so I will cut out the middleman and save 5 years of legal arguments by deporting you today”.

[Puget Ute]

You understate that number. Immigration officials actually state that up to 60% of people here ‘illegally’ are those who flew here and then overstayed their visa.

[Anonymous]

The wall is a colossal waste of money. We have zero net migration from Mexico now.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/jun/22/bill-clinton/bill-clinton-zero-net-migration-mexico-2010/

[Puget Ute]

It is so funny to see people downvote provable facts. Oh well. And in the time since that article was written we actually have a strong net negative immigration flow with Mexico. When the upcoming economic bubble inevitably pops we will probably see fewer jobs for migrants and thus will see even more leave.

I think people would be shocked at the extent to which we rely on immigrant labor (both documented and undocumented). Many of our hotels, restaurants, any job requiring manual labor, and nearly all of our fruit/vegetable farming that cannot be automated, would fail without immigrant labor. Some employers will take advantage of migrant labor by paying substandard wages with no benefits.

[SkinyUte]

Some employers will take advantage of migrant labor by paying substandard wages with no benefits.

Some? 😉

I’m curious how loud the howling will be if/when the migrant labor force is removed and the costs of, well, everything see a massive increase.

[Anonymous]

That’s the Post-Truth Era for you. People would rather “win” than be right.

[ironman1315]

And it will keep the White Walkers out.

[SkinyUte]

Brown Walkers, duh.

[Author]

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