Anyone else Following Ohio St ?

[Utah5410]

Unreal. I cannot believe the dude didn’t get fired. I get he wins and is an amazing coach but the backlash from this is not going to go away. The evidence is so overwhelming why would Ohio St keep him with this ? They can get wheover they want and still win 90 percent of there games. This will not go away. I would be shocked if something else doesn’t happen. 

[ProudUte]

IMO, Meyer should have been suspended a year without pay as minimum punishment.  I would have probably fired him.  He has a reputation of looking the other way.  I remember a time at Florida where he had double digit felons on his team.  Look what he didn’t do in the Hernandez situation.  We know how that worked out.

He needs to be held accountable.  He is a great coach, but you can’t let things like this slide.  He knew what was going on and should have fired the guy.  I think it is very sad that OSU didn’t have the balls to do the right thing.

 

[GameForAnyFuss]

They need to fire the AD as much as they need to fire Urban. 3 game suspension? They suspended a player 6 games for making $3,000 from selling jerseys. 

The AD is saying that a broke college kid selling jerseys is twice as bad as protecting a known spousal abuser. Unreal. 

[Stone]

“protecting a known spousal abuser” – this is not an accurate characterization.

Let’s be clear, Urban is responsible for “employing an accused spousal abuser that was reported to authorities and never prosecuted for those allegations”

I am not saying that assistant coach is innocent or guilty. My gut says he is likely guilty of the allegations, but that is for a jury to decide if/when he is ever prosecuted. Urban employed the guy. That is not a crime. But it may have been a violation Title IX or university policy if Urban did not report the allegations to the University. If Urban did report the allegations to the University, there is no justification for Urban to be suspended or punished at all.

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

Title IX is irrelevant because the alleged victimm of the abuse was not at any time a student or employee of the universities at issue. 

I agree that Urban did nothing illegal, but that should not be the only basis for determining who should lead and teach a football team, imo.

[ironman1315]

Question: does anyone know if Smith had a clause in his contract that could have tied Urban’s hands?

[Utah]

This is a very slippery slope to head down. 

[UteFanatic]

I will always be grateful for what Urban did for Utah while he was here, but his behavior over the years has shown that he lacks integrity and character. I’m glad he is longer associated with Utah, he is not a good person.

[SkinyUte]

^^^^THIS

[Hellhound152]

As a prosecutor, I get that domestic battery is a high stakes topic and should be considered as such.  However, what we are really looking at in this situation is how culpable is a football coach for the alleged action of an employee outside of work?    

First, we don’t know the actual facts of the case, and likely never will.  Second, less than 2 years ago Mike MacIntyre at Colorado was involved in the same situation except that he actually knew that his coach had been arrested and was actively being prosecuted and did not report it to the A.D., MacIntyre didn’t miss a game and everyone has forgotten about it.

The cold hard truth is the only duty that Meyer had was to report what he knew to his superior per university policy.  If that happened, he did what he was supposed to do.  If it didn’t, then Meyer failed to perform a duty of his job.  But to pontificate from a position of self righteousness as to what those with the real facts ought to have done is just foolish.  

[Stone]

Agree with this ^^^^

Lynch mob mentality is generally not good. People tend to make generalizations and jump to conclusions that are more nuanced than media likes to portray.

[Anonymous]

Well said. Virtue signaling has become an epidemic. I worry that at some point it will eclipse due process. That would be a sad day. 

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

I disagree. We have the committee’s report. We have the facts. Meyer wiped his phone before providing it to the administration so that there would be no evidence that he actually was aware of the text messages from Courtney Smith. That leads to a pretty strong presumption that there was evidence that would have been bad for him on his phone – also, it’s clear he has lied several times over the last few weeks so his credibility is out the window.

While I agree that this wouldn’t be enough to prosecute him, especially since nothing he’s done is criminal, nor is it enough for the University to fire him without neogitating a buyout, but I would have still liked to see the University do the “right” thing and suspend him with the intention of negotiating his resignation. 

[Stone]

I have not read the report released last night, so that may alter my opinion.

But for the sake of debate, would you take the position that every accused spousal abuser should lose their job? Also, if you agree with that position, would you agree that every boss that fails to fire an employee accused of spousal abouse should lose their job? Because that seems to be the path many arguments against Urban are headed (not necessarily yours).

Perhaps the distinction is that this is a public employee job, not private. Okay. So essentially the same question, should every public employee accused of spousal abuse lose their job? Should every public employee boss that fails to fire an employee accused of spousal abuse lose their job?

I am not sympathetic to spousal abusers, but I am a strong believer in due process and am vehemently against lynch mob rule. 

 

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

Read the report. It’s definitely interesting.

But for puposes of your debate, let’s assume that Meyer knew everything about the alleged abuse and did nothing. Then yes, I think he should be fired. His actions or rather inaction is a message to his players and the world that he doesn’t value the issues of abuse enough to do something about them when he is presented with an opportunity to discover the truth. Meyer isn’t claiming that Smith is a good man who didn’t abuse his wife, instead he’s lying that he never knew about the alleged abuse and that what little he knew he reported to his supervisors and beyond that it wasn’t his problem. I think that bar is too low for such a visible, public employee who weilds so much power and influence over the minds of young men in an industry where mistreatment of women is all too comon an issue. I think we should expect more and I think OSU missed an opportunity to communicate that with their decision.    

An accused abuser should not autmotically lose his job just because an accusation has been levied agaisnt them. But not all accusations are created equal either.  And I believe in Meyer’s case we have enough information to determine his fate.

I believe in due process too, but you can’t hide behind due process as you’re destroying evidence, openly making false statements, and attacking the victim/reporters who highlighted the issues to begin with. This was not a judicial or quasi-judicial proceeding.

I agree that the mob should not rule – that’s why our government is a democratic republic not a full-on democracy. I simply believ that OSU missed a major opportunity to do the right thing and send a message regarding their values. 

 

[Stone]

As to the destroying evidence stuff, I will need to read the report tonight to understand that. As to the lying to the media about it, yes, not good, but I am not as concerned about that.

As to the hypothetical, okay, let’s assume Meyer knew everything that was told to Meyer’s wife. I think that is a reasonable assumption. So then Meyer is in a situation where he knows: (a) his employee’s wife is accusing the employee of abuse, and (b) the abuse has been reported to the police. Meyer can then: (1) fire his employee based on allegations, (2) independently report the allegation to the police, and/or (3) relay the allegation to the university (i.e., tell Meyer’s bosses and let them handle it).

I am not a fan of Option 1 because it is essentially saying that persons accused of crimes should be fired. That seems unjust. Perhaps a balance would be to have the person take a leave of absense until the case is resolved, but that leads to Option 2. Here, where the police have already been informed of the allegations and no prosecution is forthcoming, the leave of absence would essentially be a termination.

Option 2 also strikes me as odd because what exactly can Meyer provide the police that they do not already know? He can call the police and have this conversation:

Meyer: “hey, I am told you already know this, but I wanted to tell you that my wife got a text message from a friend, and the friend says that she is being abused by her husband.”

Police: “Yup, we already know about the allegation, and we are investigating it.”

To me, this seems silly. Now, if the police were NOT already aware, then sure, a responsible/decent person would call the police. But if the police were already aware, I do not see what the point is of having more people call the police, unless those people have information/evidence that the police do not already have (I assume the police already had a statement and pictures from the assistant coach’s wife, but if not, then yes, Meyer should have forwarded the additional evidence).

So then there is Option 3, Meyer tell his bosses. Yes, he should do this because he was contractually obligated to do this. But again, what then are his bosses going to do other than call the police (unless we want to get into the Title IX world, but you are saying that is not at issue here), which takes us back to Option 2.

I do not advocate for simply passing the buck, but at some point, the system needs to be allowed to function without people being fired based on accusations. And I recognize that spousal abuse is tricky because the victim can have a hard time pressing charges against a spouse they are dependent on. But it seems like a stretch to then just default to assuming the abuse happened and firing someone accused of abuse (i.e., someone accused of abuse must lose their job). Or going a step further and firing the boss of someone accused of abuse (i.e., bosses of accused abusers must be fired if they do not fire the employee). If we are going to go that direction, shouldn’t we also see that the police that investigated the crime are fired for not doing more, that the prosecutor is fired for not doing more, that every friend and family member of the victim that was aware of the allegations is also fired for not doing more. Why stop at the guy’s boss at work? Shouldn’t we be more angry at the people that are closer to the victim and the crime? My family and friends know far more about my life than my boss, they should be far more culpable than my boss (who is simply someone that writes me a paycheck for making widgets), if we want to send a message that abuse should stop, let’s make them unemployed.

The fact that I employ someone accused of abuse, investigated by the police for abuse, but never charged/convicted of abuse should not mean that I lose my job. That is the short summary of my long-winded opinion.

 

[Chidojuan]

I can see both sides to wiping a phone. Maybe he did have something incriminating on there, or maybe he had something potentially embarrassing unrelated to the investigation. It’s not hard to recover old text messages, you just have to recover an old backup, so if they really want to do it, they can. He didn’t wipe his phone, it appears that he deleted texts more than a year old, which is not necessarily incriminating, and again, if they really want them, they can get them. What about his wife’s phone? Smith’s phone? The evidence is there if they subpoena the parties. I can see fear of the media as a legitimate reason to wipe your phone. Dinich on ESPN has been particularly accusatory and quick to jump to conclusions. They, meaning the press, already think it’s a punishable offense to lie to them. It does appear to be turning into a lynch mob rather quickly.

[Utah]

Like I said, this is a VERY slippery slope to head down and not a good one. 

We need to be careful taking pitchforks our against Urban here. There is not NEARLY enough information to be reacting the way we are. 

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

Utah, I don’t post a lot on here but I always appreciate your takes on football. You’re very insightful.

But I think the slippery slope argument you’re making is a lazy one. It’s an illogical argument that everyone makes in favor of maintaining the status quo. The argument implies that we would make some decision and then would never be able to stop the momentum of that one decision resulting in some horrific, irreversible damage. If at some point we go too far, we can always just correct back until we find the appropriate balance, there is no slippery slope.

[UtMtBiker]

Whats your point? We aren’t allowed to debate and discuss things on a forum?  Why are you even on here?  Thats the very point of a forum.  

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

Whats your point? We aren’t allowed to debate and discuss things on a forum?  Why are you even on here?  Thats the very point of a forum.  

Ummmmmmm, not sure what you’re really getting at here. We are debating an issue. Rather civilly I might add before you came along. But I will absolutely allow you to participate. And I agree, that is the very point of a forum.

As to why I’m even here; I’m here because I’m a Utah fan firstly and I’m debating this issue today because I think it matters and there have been some takes with which I disagree.

My points were:

1. the slippery slope argument is lazy because it plays to unfounded fears without really addressing the issue at hand; and

2. is illogical because we can always reverse direction on a particular issue if necessary.

But all that aside, you’re welcome to make it and agree with it if you’d like but then I’ll just disagree with you. 

[chinngiskhaan]

deleted

[chinngiskhaan]

ARE YOU KIDDING ME HERE????? The idea of saying we shouldn’t be jumping to conclusions, when the information about the investigation is readily available to anyone who cares to read it, is laziness at best.

The guy wasn’t just Urban’s employee. The guy (won’t bother typing his name) is Urban’s mentor’s grandson and has been VERY close to Urban for a LONG TIME. He and this guy spend hours and hours with each other every week. They aren’t just coworkers.

Furthermore, Urban KNEW ABOUT IT, and LIED ABOUT IT. He deleted old text messages. He claims that the victim told him that she lied to the police in a meeting between her, her husband, and Meyer… Only that meeting never took place. She says it didn’t happen, her husband says it didn’t happen, and the police say it didn’t happen.

Meyer deleting texts isn’t about destroying evidence so much as it is about him being dishonest.

We know without a doubt that he knew about it. We know without a doubt that he did not report it like he was required to. We know without a doubt that he lied about what he knew. He should be fired.

If you don’t want to take the time to learn the facts… Instead of writing a comment telling others not to jump to conclusions (when the information is readily available)… Then you really just shouldn’t be commenting on it at all IMO. If the information wasn’t available to you, then I would understand it, but it isn’t hard to find, and it isn’t hard to decipher.

Saying we don’t know what really happened, so don’t jump to conclusions, is a lazy way of defending a human being that has consistently shown to care about nothing and nobody other than himself and his own goals. He has spent his career cheating and running away from the consequences of doing so.

[Minneapolitan_Ute]

Unfortunately, I will be shocked if something else does happen. Legally, he wasn’t required to report anything but ethically and morally, he absolutely shoud have. It would have been difficult for Ohio State to terminate him without a buyout, there would have been protracted litigation if they had, but if I were an Ohio State fan I’d want him gone for sure. I’m glad he’s not our coach

[KoolWhitt]

Ohio State has national champtionship aspirations this year.  They basically suspended him for their OOC schedule, and get him back with two weeks to prepare for Penn State.  They can afford to drop that TCU game if they win out their conference games.

Basically, they get to say they punished him but without threatening their title odds.  Not surprised.

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