Are the Pac 12 teams a fit for the Big 12

[BUBearsFan]

Baylor fan here. Constructive points to our potential new members if Utah could swallow the drop in competition. : )) I’m curious about some thoughts on these points:

1) It seems like Pac 12 schools have little respect for Big 12 schools minus OU and UT. I’ve seen discussion on the Utah board about their reluctance to be in the Big 12 because of religious schools. In past Pac 12 expansion talks, I recall at least one of these schools being left out of the discussion because of this point. I’ve also seen plenty of discussion about how the Big 12 schools aren’t on the same level academically. And on average that’s true for sure. But Utah wouldn’t be at the top of the Big 12. I believe some of the Big 12 schools have some strong feelings about the past attitudes of the Pac 12 schools towards the Big 12. And I think Fit is as high on the Big 12 radar as revenue and I have seen this discussed by the Baylor AD. The UT cancer is leaving. Big $$ loss but also a misFit leaving.

When one Big 12 leader was asked about taking schools from the Pac 12, he said “Why?”. But surely the Big 12 will take some.

So from a Fit perspective, how do you think the Pac 12 schools would fit with the Big 12? How about Utah? Which Pac 12 schools would fit the most?

2) I have seen plenty of talk about how the Pac 12 schools are more competitive than the Big 12 and a move to the Big 12 would be a move into the mid majors or something like this. And maybe this is because they would join a conference without OU and UT. Where do these beliefs come from? How many are aware of the success level (lack of) of UT for the past decade? How well has the Pac 12 minus UCLA and USC performed in terms of bowl games and rankings versus the Big 12 minus OU and UT but plus the 4 new schools? Are the Pac 12 teams that much better than the Big 12 or actually worse?

See linked article about 2021 bowl performances. And this trend didn’t just start in 2021. This has been a multi-year theme.

– Big 12 (excluding OU and including the new 4): 6-1 with Cinci losing to Bama in the Playoffs.
– Pac 12 : 0-5

From the linked article, “College football bowl season winners, losers: Big 12 steps up; Pac-12’s stink will linger”.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2022/01/05/college-football-bowl-season-winners-losers-big-12-pac-12/9092011002/?gnt-cfr=1

 

Latest Top 25 (counting OU & UT as SEC // USC & UCLA as B1G // Cinci, UCF, BYU, Houston as Big 12)

Top 10:

Big 12 = 3
SEC = 3
B1G = 3
ACC = 0
Pac 12 = 0

11-25:

ACC = 4
SEC = 3
Big 12 = 2
Pac 12 = 2
B1G = 1

And notably USC and UCLA are not in the Top 25.

https://www.cbssports.com/college-football/rankings/ap/

And the Big 12 is the best basketball conference. Any disagreement? Check those wins and rankings.

Do you think any Big 12 teams could be attracted to the Pac 12 based on these points? Or do you think Pac 12 teams are more likely to come swimming to the Big 12?

*********

1) My hope for the Big 12: add Oregon and Washington. If this doesn’t happen, add 2 of the best fit.

2) Wait to take more from the ACC when the B1G and SEC rob them of at least North Carolina, Clemson, FSU, and Miami. They are a better fit and are more competitive.

Thoughts?

 

[UteHorn21]

Just so everyone knows Baylor is only in the Big 12 because when the conference was formed the governor of Texas (Ann Richards) threatened legal action on A&M and Texas is Baylor wasn’t included.

Baylor folks are the saw you at the strip club Saturday and in the church pew on Sunday. Don’t believe me, go read Baylor fans threads when the rape stuff came out about Art Briles (who they still worship)

[BUBearsFan]

That’s true. Baylor grad and Governor Ann Richards made sure Baylor was in. Which Governor is going to save Utah?

Let’s make sure all of you know something else. There’s not a team in the country who has spent more money on football and failed at the highest level like Texas. They have been a Big 12 bottom dweller for a decade. Baylor routinely curb stomps them along with the majority of the conference including Kansas last year. So Texas will run to the SEC with it’s bag of money and continue getting curb stomped. Thankfully their cancerous ways that ran Texas A&M (their new Big brother) and 3 others off won’t be tolerated in the SEC.

[UteHorn21]

Baylor isn’t curb stomping anyone let alone Texas. Didn’t y’all just have a 1-11 season lol. Texas is up 6-4 in the last 10 games. This was also the worst decade in Longhorns football history. Let’s go see how Baylor did vs Texas in their down years 🤣🤣🤣 problem was that was like 20 years and it caused y’all to put up tarps at Floyd Casey. Back to Waco you go Bible aggy.

[AZUTE]

When a BYU fan pretends to be a Baylor fan and posts on a Utah message board

[PhiladelphiaUte]

^^^ This ^^^

[Yergensen]

Your slanted criteria aside (excluding brand cachet, CFP appearances, NY6 appearances, using preseason rankings, citing one of the few preseason rankings that excludes Utah), any superiority slights you perceive may actually have more to do with current big picture reality and our seeing the big picture than it has to do with you.  

Like one of your myopic, low self esteem colleagues that we know well, you think think last week’s development only affects the PAC, that your membership to the club will still be good and your conference just moved up a notch in pecking order.

Reality is this is moving to a two conference club leaving everyone else out, yourselves included.  So, forgive us if we don’t seem impressed or concerned with switching deck chairs on the Titanic at the moment.  

[BUBearsFan]

Some of you are living in a dream world. You should see the responses on the Oregon board from the same exact post. Nothing but positive including the good possibility of them and Washington joining the Big 12. And they have a real chance of making the B1G.

On the Utah board, personal attacks, negativity, and elitism. From Utah. :)) I can see the Utah fans are drawing attention across multiple boards because of these things. The Pac 12 will collapse. Utah may find themselves back home in the MWC.

[UteFanatic]

Your sample size is small, and I read through the Oregon fan responses and there were plenty of griping about the situation, they weren’t all positive. Also, noticed a lot of complaining about the possibility of having to associate with religious universities due to their discriminatory stances, but that conversation was shut down by the moderator before it got out of hand. 

Outside of that post, there are many Oregon fans that are NOT happy about what is happening. I know several.

Also, you haven’t seen the real rage come out yet because they think they are going to make it into the B1G. If they don’t, they will meltdown and display a level of self-righteousness and indignation about having to join the Big12 unlike anything you’ve ever seen.

If you think the general sentiment among Oregon fans is that they’re happy and content about the prospect of joining the Big12, you are quite delusional.

[Waybackutefan]

BYU fan here.

There fixed it for you. Didn’t have the desire to read this manifesto past the first paragraph.

 

 

[dystopiamembrane]

Thank you for posting this piece. I’ll start by saying, “All religious schools make me simultaneously grin and cringe.”^

That said, the data you provide is consistent with other data around the country.

Massey’s composite of 84 rankings systems has the following P5 conference 2021 final rankings.

SEC > B12 > B10 > ACC > P12

The data indicate that the Pac-12 is much closer to the MWC and the AAC than it is to the other four P5s.

^Except for Graceland University. Full steam ahead, you RLDS Yellowjackets!

[dystopiamembrane]

Down-voting without offering a counter argument is a form of trolling. Discuss.

[perceptionate]

The Big 12 would be a good option, and if it happens, I’d look forward to watching some Utah/Baylor matchups. But not sure why you’re coming to our forum and saying you don’t want Utah in your conference. That’s not a good look — and it’s rich considering you’re accusing *us* of being arrogant/exclusionary.

Maybe Baylor will become one of our rivals (honestly getting a lot of BYU feels from this post).

[dystopiamembrane]

“That’s not a good look…” HA

[UteHorn21]

They’re like BYU fans that drink beer and have premarital sex. But you’ll definitely hear some “what the frick’s” at a Baylor game lol. The typical never really won anything but expects to be treated like football royalty.

It’ll be fun to watch them and BYU interact.

[dystopiamembrane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G3kI3TIKz4

[UteFanatic]

I find it odd that you’re shotgunning this across Pac12 message boards and then relaying the responses back to Cougarboard. 

https://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=28854493

https://www.cougarboard.com/board/message.html?id=28860295

But, I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a serious response. So go ahead and take what I say here and share it with your Cougarboard buddies!

Of course there are going to be some fans that are disappointed about going from the Pac12 to the Big12. Is this surprising? Were you happy when UT and OU left and the Big12 backfilled with a bunch of G5 teams that nobody wanted until desperation mode struck? No, of course you weren’t. But in the end, you accepted it, and made peace with the new reality. The same will happen for the fanbases in the Pac12.

The biggest problem with the new Big12 is there isn’t any bluebloods, and will therefore will always be on tenuous footing. Especially if the BIG/SEC decides to poach a few more teams from the ACC/BIG12/PAC12 in order to build up their superconferences and kill off everyone else. The only stable conferences through the years are the ones that have at least one blueblood, acting as the binding agent that keep the conference together. A Baylor fan should understand that better than anyone.

The entire landscape of college football shifted dramatically 5 days ago. Anyone who has been paying attention the last few years knew that power consolidation among two conferences was the ulimate goal. So it wasn’t a surprise to see USC leave, it was inevitable.

But that doesn’t mean it’s not disappointing to the fans. The disappointment is not so much the prospect of joining the Big12, it is because the P5 has officially died. It is now P2 versus everyone else. So, you’ll have to forgive some fans for not being excited about this new era of college football.

With that being said, you’ll find that the vast majority of Ute fans aren’t holding out hope for a B1G invite. There’s always a delusional idiot or two that overvalues Utah’s brand or just simply doesn’t understand the CFB landscape and how it works. For example, there was a BYU fan on /r/cfb yesterday that made a complete ass out of himself by telling everyone how BYU has veto power and will block Utah from being invited to the Big12 because Utah was mean to them and hurt their feelings. He got roasted by the /r/cfb community and rightfully so. Delusion exists in every fanbase.

https://twitter.com/LuckeyUte/status/1543774011842105346

Here’s where I stand. I think all signs are pointing to the best Pac12 teams being absorbed by the Big12. That seems to be what most analysts and talking heads think will happen. I agree, and to the horror and dismay of BYU fans, Utah probably makes the cut. 

I see the Big12 being proactive and inviting Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, and Colorado. This effectively guts the Pac12 and also gives UW and UO no choice but to come along if they don’t get their B1G invite. But they won’t come until they get a hard no from the B1G, and probably the SEC and ACC as well.

That rounds out the additions to 6 teams: Arizona, Arizona State, Utah, Colorado, Oregon, and Washington.

This is not a bad conference. No premier teams, but Oregon is close to being one. UW isn’t far behind. 

I am under no illusion about what Utah is. They’re a solid program with multiple top 25 finishes over the last 20 years and a recent conference championship and a very competitive and highly ranked/viewed Rose Bowl game with Ohio State. Unlike other Pac12 programs, they prioritize football, and regularly fill the stadium with passionate fans. They also average nearly 1M viewers per game. The WSJ ranked them as the #37 most valuable program in college football. That puts them in the upper third of the current Big12/Pac12 teams, and ahead of Baylor (#59) and BYU (#60).

https://graphics.wsj.com/table/NCAA_2019

Utah isn’t going to be invited to the B1G or SEC unless the P2 decides to go nuclear and balloons to 24+ teams. The Big12 is Utah’s best option unless Phil Knight decides to drop billions to save the Pac12. I have no problem joining a conference with the “best of the rest”. CFB is already dead, but at least the Big12 has some decent teams and the football will be entertaining.

I do wonder if the Big12 has some buyers remorse with the G5 teams they added last year, though. My guess is those programs wouldn’t even be considered by the Big12 right now given the choices of the Pac12 teams to choose from. It’s unfortunate, because the conference has a lot dilution and that may end up really hurting it in the long run. That’s why some people are saying it would be best for the existing two conferences to disband and re-form with the 16 best teams. 

 

[BD]

Fantastic post UteFanatic. Excellent logic. I agree completely.

[Charlie]

I pretty much agree. I learned long ago to analyze with math not emotion to get at solutions. The critical math will be regional TVs followed by interest level in a particular school as a modifier. It must be an interesting balance between the older generation that remembers the previous century of football vs folks 30s and under that only relate to the last 20 years max. The emotional discussion will sound like the ‘7 blind men and the elephant’. The marketing experts that are calling the shots are unemotionally running the math with an eye looking at the next 10 or 12 years. When they do, I expect there is no assessment of conference power and will rank the Big 12 and Pac by individual schools which will look like a shuffled deck. To come up with the best line up, I expect both conference contracts get in the way to add and subtract schools. Four conferences for playoffs is much more tidy than 5. Someone needs to take the lead and come up with the best schools that are not SEC, BIG, ACC and make a case. Be prepared to allow the SEC and BIG to more money and have playoff advantages. Helpful to this effort is the Big 12 and Pac have enough good teams that to crown a champ a case can be made to consider them. So who will be the 12 or 14 schools when starting over to pitch as the forth and last power conference?

[UteThunder]

They had no other option, so they made the best move they could at that time. Now that they have the benefit of seeing where we are today, there’s no doubt the BigXII are kicking themselves for adding 4 G5 teams last year. 

The remaining Pac-12 schools plus the 8 remaining BigXII schools would make a pretty good super-conference.

But as things stand now? UCF, Houston, and Cincinnati all dilute the perception of whatever final conference merger there may end up being. Even BYU dilutes the perception a bit because, like the others, they are not yet, and have never been, a P5 program. The country sees BYU in much the same way they see Boise State – a quirky school from the Mountain Time Zone that’s a pretty good G5 team.

If the Pac-12 and BigXII are smart, they are working on finding a way to make a final conference made up of the 18 remaining Pac-12 & BigXII teams. Perception wise, that conference will be seen as better than the current BigXII (plus the 4 G5 teams) with a handful of Pac-12 teams added.

[UteFanatic]

Good post. 

Like any good Utah fan, I don’t like BYU. But I am going to put my dislike aside for a minute for the sake of objectivity, and say they were a good add for the Big12 at the time. They couldn’t move the needle for P5 expansion up to that point, but they finally found a home when Big12 got desperate. Good for them. It’s better to be picked last by the JV team than not at all.

But, yeah…UCF, Houston, and Cincy, were not good additions. They were desperation adds and are now an albatross around the Big12’s neck. Like I said earlier if the 8 member Big12 conference were picking expansion candidates right now, those three wouldn’t even be considered. To their credit, BYU would be, but Utah would be ahead of them.

[PhiladelphiaUte]

I agree.  It would be better to form a new conference with UWa, Ore, Cal, Stan, Ariz St, Utah, and Colo, in the western division, and Iowa St, Kan, Kan St, Okla St, Tx Tech, TCU, Bylr in the east.  If UWa and Ore go to the BigTen, replace them with SDSU and Houston, and move Tx Tech to the western division.

[PhiladelphiaUte]

“I find it odd that you’re shotgunning this across Pac12 message boards and then relaying the responses back to Cougarboard.” — UteFanatic

…and NOT on any of the Baylor fan boards!

#ZoobAlert

[PhiladelphiaUte]

“I find it odd that you’re shotgunning this across Pac12 message boards and then relaying the responses back to Cougarboard.” — UteFanatic

…and NOT on any of the Baylor fan boards!

#ZoobAlert

[PhiladelphiaUte]

“I find it odd that you’re shotgunning this across Pac12 message boards and then relaying the responses back to Cougarboard.” — UteFanatic

…and NOT on any of the Baylor fan boards!

#ZoobAlert

[Paul]

Iowa State here. I completely understand what y’all are feeling as a fan base right now. It’s mix between frustration and uncertainty. I know the ISU fan base would love to have y’all in the B12. Please don’t judge us when comes to Baylor fans. They are the black eye of the B12. No one likes them. I think once you see how much passion fan bases in the B12 have (excluding Baylor) Utah will hopefully be happy with the fit. Again, happy to have Utah and nothing but the best for this upcoming season.

[Central Coast Ute]

Thanks for stopping by Paul. If you think Baylor fans are bad, wait until you’ve dealt with byu for a few years. This guy isn’t a Baylor fan. He’s a byu fan acting like a Baylor fan.

[Paul]

Lol!!! I completely understand about the BYU fans posing as other fan bases. Iowa does that to us all the time. What I really like about Utah is how successful they’ve been the last almost decade. But the national media doesn’t give them enough respect. I think if Utah comes in the next couple of years you shoot right to the top of the conference and hopefully get some respect on the national stage.

[Extra Medium]

Baylor is garbage. The big 12 is garbage. If we end up joining the Big 12 it is not because we want to it is only because we have to survive. That being said the Big 10 will always be the goal. Just like when we were in the MWC always looking to the Pac-12 we’ll be in the Big 12 working behind the scenes to get into the big 12.

[dystopiamembrane]

Would you be willing to provide links to support your argument, @runningreddude?

[ironman1315]

0 problem with the big 12. Playing BYU again is going to suuuuuuuuck. 

[RedUte14]

Very obviously a BYU or a Utah Hater. Regardless very biased. Which makes the comment very inappropriate for a fan board. You are a Zoob Sean.

[UteFanatic]

It’s really easy to spot because the facts are all twisted and aren’t in line with the general consensus in the CFB world about what Utah is and where they’ll end up.

If you read Cougarboard, every single post says the same thing over and over again. There must be a 1000 posts or more that is some variation of this:

“Utah adds no value and these decisions are always about money so they shouldn’t be added”. 

It’s really funny to hear them ignore reality, and just shout the same false narratives into their own echo chamber ad nauseum. Any rational voice that tries to speak up for Utah just gets angrily shouted down. I have never seen such an insecure group of people. It’s straight up weird. The growing disparity between the programs over the last decade has really done a number on their collective psyche. It’s fascinating.

They are so insecure they are creating accounts on Big12 message boards to try and convince other fanbases that Utah shouldn’t be added. 

This is all very entertaining to me, because if Utah adds no value they won’t be invited to the Big12 and BYU fans have nothing to worry about.

So why are they so worried about it? Because they don’t really believe what they’re saying. 

[BD]

I have never seen such an insecure group of people. It’s straight up weird. The growing disparity between the programs over the last decade has really done a number on their collective psyche. It’s fascinating.

Nailed it again. I have never seen a fan base so out of their minds obsessed beyond crazy to “one-up” their rival. It is weird beyond my ability to comprehend. I mean, they are far more excited about anything that might remotely be bad news about Utah than any good news about their own programs.

It’s almost as if Utah being better in any way is against the very laws of the universe to them and when it happens they can’t begin to handle it.

Plain weird.

[Michael Gaston]

Kansas State grad here. I would not pay too much attention to most Baylor fans. They are only in the Big 12 because of Ann Richards and they know it. Most fans of the Irate 8 would welcome Utah to the Big 12. You will find the Big 12 to be very competitive in most men and women’s sports. Some of the teams have an excellent following for road football games. For the most part, visiting fans are treated quite well when on road trips.

[Author]

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