Dennis Lindsey

[Utah]

Hired in 2012.
Draft: Kevin Murphy – traded to GS allowing the greatest team ever to be created.
Transactions: Traded Harris for Williams. Signed Foye. Waived Raja Bell.
Let Millsap, Carroll and Jefferson walk for nothing.

2013:
Draft: Traded for Trey Burke. Traded for Gobert.
Transactions: traded Murphy and Foye to allow GS to assemble the greatest team ever.
Hired Snyder

2014:
Draft: Exum, Hood, Stokes
Transactions: Let Hayward shop for his own deal instead of 4 year maxing him, which allowed him to leave a year early. There is no excuse for not having Hayward on the team last year. Signed Booker. Traded Kanyer for not much.

2015:
Draft: Trey Lyles
Transactions: signed Neto and Ingles.

2016:
Draft: Prince
Transactions: Traded Prince to Atl for Hill instead of Teague. Traded Burke away for nothing. Signed Joe Johnson.

2017:
Draft: Traded Lyles and pick for Mitchell. Traded Josh Hart for Bradley.
Transactions: Traded 2018 first round pick for Rubio. Traded Hood for Crowder. Signed Royce O’Neal.

Key Players lost: Millsap, Carroll, Hayward
Key Players added: Mitchell, Gobert

Playoffs: 2 times (2017, 2018)
No Playoffs: 4 times (I think: 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016)

Out of a grading scale of “outstanding, satisfactory, undetermined or poor” I’d rate him as “satisfactory”.

Before Mitchell, I would have graded him as “poor”. Good thing Denver called him and wanted Lyles over Mitchell, right? I said Lindsey was on the hot seat before last season.

Losing Hayward was unacceptable. There is no excuse for that. First, he should have maxed Hayward for four years, knowing the cap was going up. He dropped the ball on that. Second, when Hayward asked for a trade in the summer of 2016, he should have gotten a pick from Boston. Can you imagine if we had Brown or Tatum on this team? The Hayward situation was a colossal f**k up. Any other team would have seriously considered firing him over that.

Now? I give him this year and next. If he can’t bag a third player to go with Mitchell, then we might be in big trouble.

[ironman1315]

Whatever man. It’s apparent you dislike anything to do with the Miller’s Lindsey is easily top quartile GM.

[Utah]

Going to the playoffs twice 2 out of 6 years is a top 25% GM? Losing Millsap and Hayward, who are two of the top 5 paid players in basketball, is a top GM?

Lindsey took a borderline playoff team, let three of their top four players walk for nothing to tank. He then let his top player walk for nothing. That got him 2 playoffs in 6 years. Teams that went to the playoffs twice as often (or more) as Lindsey has gone to the playoffs:

Heat – this includes having LeBron, losing LeBron and Wade, then rebuilding again.
Spurs – Again, this includes them losing arguably the greatest player in all time and not missing a beat.
Pacers – They lost Paul George, a better player than anyone we have, and still going to the playoffs 5 times in 6 years.
Grizzlies – they went 5 times.
Warriors – They were good before Dennis Lindsey. Because of Lindsey, they became great.
Bulls – 4 times.
Thunder – 4 trips. They lost Durant in this time period and replaced him with George.
Rockets – Ainge or Morey are probably 1 and 2 GM’s in the league.
Clippers – 5 times
Hawks – 5 times
Celtics – 5 times
Bucks – 4 times
Blazers – 5 times. And this is with losing one of their top 2 players.
Wizards – 4 times
Raptors – 4 times
Cavs – 4 times

That is 16 teams that have been twice as successful since 2012 than Lindsey. That is over half. If you add in teams that have been to the playoffs three times in that span? Then 18 teams have been more successful than Lindsey over that span. That is a looooooong ways from top 25% GM.

It is very mediocre. Which is what I have said Lindsey is. Very mediocre, with some amazing luck tossed in.

[chinngiskhaan]

Utah,

Clearly you are biased, and don’t know what you are talking about.

You are honestly claiming that Lindsey letting go two of the 5 highest paid players in the NBA is a bad thing? Are Millsap and Heyward top 5 NBA players? NO NO NO. Are they top 10? NO NO NO NO NO. Are they top 20? NOPE. Top 30? NOPE AGAIN.

Lindsey not overpaying for players is not a good thing, not a bad one. Of all of those draftees and transactions you listed, a good number of them have worked out in the Jazz’s favor.

Try not to be an idiot.

[chinngiskhaan]

and I don’t even like the Jazz. I’ve been openly critical of Jazz homerism on the page.

[EagleMountainUte]

Jazz were willing to overpay for Hayward.  They had an offer that was max contract.  Hayward was an all star and the best player on that current Jazz roster.  He was easily replaced by a rookie from out of no where. Then the second highest scorer from that playoff team in Hill was replaced by Rubio and the rise of Ingles.  Everyone had Utah as a lottery team. DL didn’t lose Hayward, Hayward wanted to play for Stevens no matter what.   It was mostly luck that sort of made the 2017-2018 season for the Jazz. 

Listening more to what happened, Mitchell has said it wasn’t just Snyder recognizing special talent.  It was DL and the shooting coach(whose name escapes me).  Mitchell had pretty much no reputation for a three point shot, they added an arc to his shot and suddenly he becomes an outstanding weapon his rookie year.  His percentage is lower for other reasons but it improved more than anyone scouted other than DL and the Jazz organization.  

[Utah]

So, let’s say Lindsey held onto Millsap and Hayward…what is different today? Do the Jazz miss out on Gobert? 

Nope. They traded up to take Gobert. 

Do the Jazz miss out on Hood? Nope, he was a late first round pick. 

Do the Jazz miss out on Mitchell? Well, they traded Lyles for Mitchell. Lyles was a #12 pick. Lyndon was the #24 pick. So, let’s say they miss out on Mitchell, which would be quite the loss. 

BUT, the last six years, they would have gone to the playoffs a lot more than twice with Hayward, Millsap and Gobert. Those three were made for each other. 

Like I’ve said before, Denver calling Utah and offering Mitchell for Lyles took Lindsey from a bad GM to a decent GM. 

He has a chance to redeem himself the next two seasons. BUT, if we look the same two years from now, then time to part ways, because outside of Denver calling us and offering us Mitchell, he has been very mediocre. 

[ironman1315]

Dude, I deal with walls of text all day. I deal with people who omit facts everyday and ignore context everyday. I don’t need this from you.

[Utah]

Then show me how he is a top 25% GM. If you can’t, then that is ok, but if you can show me. I’ve shown you that his results have been pretty poor so far. 

He has potential to change that, but he hasn’t been the god-like GM people around here like to paint him out as. 

[ironman1315]

He inherited a complete dumpster fire and turned around a team that was at its lowest point since coming to Utah. We’ve been to the playoffs twice in two years after rebuilding under Snyder’s coaching philosophy. He’s done fine. Top quartile. We’ll see if this continues.

[ironman1315]

Also what’s the source on Denever initiating the trade?

[Utah]

David Locke has said multiple times that Denver called Lindsay about the Mitchell trade. 

 

[Utah]

Some intel on Jazz moving up to select Donovan Mitchell …

— Spence Checketts (@spencechecketts) June 23, 2017

According to Jazz FO, Donovan was the target all along, but as the draft continued, they didn't think a deal was there to be made.

— Spence Checketts (@spencechecketts) June 23, 2017

Minutes before Denver was set to pick, the Nuggets called the Jazz and initiated talks.

— Spence Checketts (@spencechecketts) June 23, 2017

"They (Denver) offered us the the deal. It unexpectedly came to us." Pretty interesting to learn Denver initiated the talks, not vice-versa.

— Spence Checketts (@spencechecketts) June 23, 2017

[ironman1315]

Thanks for providing a source. Apparently what happened was Denver looked to make a bigger trade but that fell through. Linfsey had to have shopped a trade at least with Denver to get Mitchell here. Is it luck the deal fell through? Yes. But it wasn’t luck that Denver knew Utah’s interest and had them as a viable backup.

Nuggets get Trey Lyles from Jazz in swap of first-round picks

[Sweetness]

DL wasn’t here for the DWill trade. That was KOC. DL inherited a directionless team that had just traded their all NBA star but refused to rebuild. He’s since broken that team down by doing exactly what you said, letting the guys walk that weren’t taking the team down, and rebuilt it into probably 1 of the top 5 teams in the league currently with its two best players being under 25, and has one of the top 3-5 coaches in the league. Outside of Ainge, Morey, and GS, I can’t think of a GM that has down a better job than DL the past 5 years. Also considering he is doing this all with essentially no free agency market (and our cornerstone piece walked out on us), he’s really done a phenomenal job.  

[noneyadb]

Kevin O’Conner was still around and making team decisions in 2012 during Lindsey’s first year, could be wrong, but Millsap, Matthews, Korver, Boozer, and Kirilenko all left while Kevin O’Conner was the GM and the Jazz only received Al Jefferson in return.

[Utah]

Wrong. Lindsey was GM in the 2012-2013 season. Carroll, Millsap, Jefferson were all on the team that year. AFTER Lindsey’s first year, he let all of them walk.

Again, this false narrative that is being pushed about Lindsey is just…crazy. You guys do realize that there is the internet where you can find the answers to these questions, right?

But then again, Utah’s culture has a history of believing some pretty silly stuff. It’s ingrained in our culture.

[ironman1315]

Look, you’re making a ton of assumptions that because he didn’t trade the players that he didn’t shop them. It’s entirely possible that he did so but got offers that he couldn’t accept. This seems more likely since he didn’t join the team until two months before the season started. The time to have shopped those players was BEFORE the draft because then there was no leverage. That fiasco was not his fault.

[ironman1315]

And in classic argumentation the burden of proof is upon the profferor not the opponent. Also, good job with the broad brush as hominem really convincing.

[noneyadb]

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865579259/Utah-Jazz-CEO-Greg-Miller-President-Randy-Rigby-refute-report-that-Kevin-OConnor-is-out.html

 

Jeremiah Jensen (@JJSportsBeat) Tweeted:

Dennis LIndsey finished 2nd to Daryl Morey for the NBA Executive of the Year Award. #utahjazz  #nba https://twitter.com/JJSportsBeat/status/1011454368539815936?s=17

[EagleMountainUte]

Well that is easy to explain all of that narrative. Now it is the Miller’s fault for just wanting to be a playoff team and not win a championship. 

[Utah]

God, you’re obtuse.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/UTA/2013.html

[ironman1315]

He was hired August of 12. The 2012 draft was not his fault.

[rbmw263]

Lindsey is a master team builder especially given market restrictions. If you can’t see this on some level I’m not sure you understand what you are looking at. 

[Stone]

The Hayward situation was troubling. I will never know what was said internally between Hayward and Jazz management, but it did not end well for the Jazz. In retrospect, it seems obvious that the Jazz should have either maxed him in earlier (like you said) or traded him (like you said). Instead, the Jazz lost him and got nothing. It would have been great to have either traded him for an a draft pick or re-signed him at a reasonable rate (if they had resigned him sooner). Hayward would have been a great part of the current team, but I am actually somewhat relieved that that the Jazz lost Hayward to the Celtics, considering the price they would have had to pay last year.

[ironman1315]

If DL could lookinto the future in 2014 and see what Hayward could become yes I agree we should have maxed him then. But he wasn’t great. He was good. But not an all-star and not even a star. He was a really good role player forced to play the star. He blossomed into a star really in 16-17. I don’t fault DL for letting Hayward shop. Not trading him is a problem.

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