Don’t like the 0.05 proposed limit?

[PlainsUte]

For those who don’t want the religouslature to penalize responsible drinking…

https://secure.everyaction.com/9Xdu9evsbUGviAL8KS_QkQ2

[PorterRockwell]

I applaud the effort however I suspect the thinking has already been done and he will sign it. Hasn’t he indicated he will sign it?

It’s just another feel good law. Hell even MADD was opposed to it. You’d think that would tell them something

Wasn’t it part of the package deal to create the Zion Moat?

[ironman1315]

The NTSB also flew their head out to lobby for it. The NTSB proposed all states make this change back in 2013. Every European country has .05 or lower. Australia has .05. I know it’s fun to blame the Mormons, but when the NTSB flys their leader out to lobby for it maybe that should tell you something.

[Newbomb Turk]

Maybe it’s not all on the Mormons. But to say that they had nothing to do with this is fooling yourself.

[ironman1315]

How many legislators, legislative staff, and lobbyists have you talked to about this issue? Because from everything I hear the LDS church’s involvement was exactly 0 beyond saying they have no position on this bill.

Also, fun fact, House leadership fought this bill from day one and had a deal to kill it until the other side reneged on that deal.

[Tony (admin)]

To believe the LDS church has no INFLUENCE on any of the ridiculous liquor laws is deslusional. Sure they won’t be directly or visibly “involved,” because that would be too much of an obvious church and state issue.  

[ironman1315]

But the question then is whether this law is ridiculous. I don’t think it’s good policy right now. But it’s not ridiculous either.

[Tony (admin)]

Disagree. It’s going to hurt small businesses, restaurants, bars, tourism and it will fail in keeping drunks from driving drunk.

[ironman1315]

What evidence do you have of this? Will people see the harsh liquor laws and go, “Welp, better not go to Utah for my ski trip or hiking trip.” And if so how much effect will that have? I bet negligible because people don’t come here to drink they come for other reasons.

And now let me ask this question, let’s suppose that the drunk driving deaths are cut in half, good thing or bad thing? Is that worth the loss in tourism? Are we to be mere utilitarians in assessing laws and their worth?

[Tony (admin)]

Personal experience.  As a musician who played in bars for decades I watched the clientelle slowly reduce in size over the years as the laws became more strict.  Many of the clubs went out of business. I’m sure to the satisfaction of the religiouslature. Fear of getting pulled over influenced many patrons to stay home. I experienced that in person many times. Told by dozens that they didn’t want to go out anymore because of those laws.  

I also know a couple of restaurant owners who have experienced the same.  One sold his place, which had been in operation for 25+ years.  Then that place was eventually closed as their profit margin was so thin they couldn’t survive anymore.  

I just heard yesterday on a national radio show the commentaries making fun of how much of a pain Utah liquor laws were.  They absolutely made a mockery of Utah on this show with the announcement of the new DUI limit.  Tourists may not come here to drink, but if they can’t drink, or if they would drink in fear, they’d probably opt for Tahoe or Colorado for their ski trips.

Certainly it won’t put the ski resorts or tourist destinations out of business, but the smaller mom and pop places that serve alcohol will be effected.

[ironman1315]

Did the commentators mention the NTSB and their suggestion to lower it? Did they mention Ireland? Australia? Germany? If not then they are either ill-informed or intellectually dishonest. And I would guess in the long-run the rest of the US will lower to .05 because the feds will use the spending powers to make it happen.

[Puget Ute]

When I was a ski instructor in the 90s and Utah still had the Private Club rules, I made sure I knew how to negotiate the laws so I could explain the details to my clients. I didn’t even drink at the time.

Many people laughed at the laws, and more than a few said they would ‘go to Breckinridge next year’ instead of returning to Utah.

[PorterRockwell]

i didn’t blame the mormons but if you think the mormon church didn’t have a significant level of I put on these two bills you’re kidding yourself. Rep Wilson acknowledged they were one of the first stske holders he met with because he knew if they opposed the bills they would be DOA

I don’t care about the BAC level because when I chose to Imbibe I do responsibly Thst being said I can see the hospitality industry concerns with this bill. IF you are going to cite Europe for support of your cause perhaps you ought to cite their much harsher penalties as well?

[ironman1315]

You may not have but Plains did.

And I know for a fact that the LDS position was a position of not caring. They didn’t oppose. They didn’t support. They didn’t lobby.

I could have cited Europe’s harsher penalties. Utah probably should have harsher penalties. But Europe is more tangential to show Utah is certainly not the first government to go .05. The more salient issue is the NTSB and their lobbying for the bill. Some studies they have show going down to .05 will reduce drunk driving deaths in half.

[Tony (admin)]

I do blame the mormons. Let’s be real here.

[ironman1315]

Damn Mormon laden NTSB always getting their way. Same with Mormon laden Europe and Australia that have the same .05 requirements.

[Tony (admin)]

If we are tying to be like europe then perhaps we should legalize prostitution, weed, and reduce the legal drinking age to 18 as well?  And germany in particular, let’s remove speed limits like the autobahn!

[ironman1315]

I don’t have a problem with legalizing weed. In fact, I think we should make Toquerville in Utah the weed capital of Utah. Prostitution is…iffy. There is some problem with victimization, so maybe be like Europe and ban pimping and brothels but let sole proprietors sell their wares. The legal drinking age is problematic for me because of brain development studies, but then again if they can go to war why not drink? It wouldn’t affect me, so long as they stayed off the damn roads after getting s**tfaced. And the speed limit thing, if we had better drivers I would be for it where there is bloody nothing between you and the next city.

[Tony (admin)]

Did the NTSB also recommend upping the state’s monopolistic alcohol markup (sorry “taxes”) on wine and spirits from 86% percent to 88% percent? Note: They add sales tax on top of that!

[ironman1315]

How is this relevant to the .05 change?

[Tony (admin)]

How is this relevant to the .05 change?

All these things like the .05, the zion curtain, zion moat, the high taxes, the monopoly on sales, the restricting of business hours of liquor outlets, no sales on Sunday, weak beer… All part of the effort to legislate beliefs upon sinners who don’t share them.

[ironman1315]

Again, .05 is recognized in hundreds of countries and by the NTSB as the limit. Why then is that specific thing a Mormon issue? Do Mormons run Europe? The NTSB? Come on, I agree that this law is dumb and bad policy but to claim this is a Mormon thing is trying to find a scapegoat for Utah being the first to take up the NTSB on this issue and follow Europe’s lead.

[Tony (admin)]

Did the NTSB pass the law? The religiouslature probably loved that the idea came from somewhere else. They don’t get the blame but they can still tinker with the law and penalize the heathens even more.

[ironman1315]

No, but other countries have and are they just brimming with Mormons. How can you say this .05 is utterly unreasonable when literally all of Europe and most of the world has adopted these standards and a federal agency support .05? This change is not unreasonable. It may be bad policy but it’s not as though it isn’t grounded in fact or precedent.

[Tony (admin)]

My wife is 117 pounds. She can’t even have ONE martini now without fear of being over the legal limit, and after one martini she’s not impaired in the least.

[ironman1315]

So, it might not be good for her. But again, if she isn’t impaired, will she get caught? Or if she has a DD will it matter? But if we legislate to exceptions we will run into anarchy. People at the margins get screwed, in this instance your wife is screwed, but it doesn’t make it unreasonable.

[Tony (admin)]

I take it you don’t drink, and have not ever been a patron of a club or place that sells alcohol? Cops park nearby and pull over people after they leave the club. Witness that for years in my career as a musician. So my wife, who had one martini, will get pulled over and be humiliated by having a DUI test. And she’ll be so nervous she might not pass some of the tests, though she’s perfectly sober. So they’ll give here a breathalizer and boom. .05. There goes $10K.

So the answer for us is one of two things:

1. We don’t go out.
2. We don’t buy drinks at the restaurant.

Either way it hurts business, and hurts our lifestyle.

[Puget Ute]

It is going to suck, but the proper response just might be to refuse all tests and force them to take a blood test (which will take hours, by which time she will have a BAC approaching zero).

But her car will still get towed and impounded ($$), she will lose the rest of the night, get humiliated by being frog-marched into the police station, etc.

[ironman1315]

But this is a fairly marginal instance. And since laws are general any law will cause problems at the margins. Again, I don’t think this is a good law. I also don’t think that the change is unreasonable nor religiously motivated.

A bad law need not be unreasonable to be a bad law.

[Puget Ute]

I don’t know about that. There are a LOT of sub-120# women who could have one drink with dinner and technically be in violation of the law.

That isn’t exactly marginal, when we are talking about a decent percentage of half of the population.

[Puget Ute]

True, Europe has lower BAC. But they also have better public transit and much of the drinking is done in community pubs within walking distance of home.

[zeous]

That sounds like a critique of the design of American cities more than anything.

[Puget Ute]

We absolutely need better transit. 

[KiYi-Ute]

But we can’t have Trax run all night! It will encourage the heathens to drink!

[ironman1315]

And I recognize the problem. But what about the head of the NTSB heavily lobbying for this bill in Utah? And the fact that the NTSB has studies to show reducing the limit to .05 would cut drink driving deaths in half nationwide?

[Puget Ute]

It would seem to be a boondoggle for private prisons as well (and NTSB perhaps was heavily lobbied by those companies). I worry that Little Johnny will blow higher than a 0.05 after overdoing it with mouthwash on his way to Prom.  I think I would tell my kids to demand a blood test, rather than breathalyzer, if they ever get pulled over. Also tell them to call me so I could get them a lawyer.

 

I am not in favor of drunk driving. I worry most about the false positives. And to be honest, people texting or messing with their phones while driving has a much bigger effect on their driving skills. That also should be addressed. In my state there is a $250 (min) fine for texting or talking on the phone while driving (hands-free is OK). 

 

And lastly, we could also save countless lives if we lowered the speed limit to 45 mph on the freeways. So I don’t know whether the NTSB’s argument can be taken at face value.

[ironman1315]

The Obama NTSB is a boondoggle for private prisons? Because .05 was proposed back in 2013 by the Obama NTSB

Utah texting and driving law:

Under Utah’s law, someone caught texting and driving now faces up to three months in jail and up to a $750 fine, a misdemeanor. If they cause injury or death, the punishment can grow to a felony and up to a $10,000 fine and 15 years in prison.

Also, a group can only do so much. So maybe they do plan on trying to reduce speeds on freeways but right now they’re focusing on problems that are easier to win on. An organization doesn’t have to fix a massive problem like highway safety in one go.

[Puget Ute]

I’m not sure why you think you are scoring points by invoking Obama. I realize the NTSB has been working on this for a number of years. If MADD had their way the legal BAC would be <0.01%.

Sure people between 0.05% and 0.08% are 3 times more likely to get into an accident than somebody with 0% BAC. That sounds like a big number, but that number just isn’t as impressive as it seems when you compare the accident rate for a typical person with 0% BAC (extremely rare), with a number three times that rate (three times a very small number).

I am more concerned with people getting nabbed for a DUI and going through (on the average) $12k in legal, court, and insurance fees, administratively losing his/her license, etc, for blowing just over a 0.05%. Or for somebody getting a DUI due to a false positive test. A typical woman (or smaller man) can hit 0.05% after only one drink, and most likely won’t have much in the way of any impairment, especially after an hour or so.

And this likely won’t do much of anything to combat the REAL danger on the road, which is the binge drinker who blows >0.15% (who are responsible for >70% of the DUI accidents and a higher percentage of DUI deaths).

So yes, this is a super-easy win for the legislature. But it won’t make much of a real-world, positive statistical difference. But at least it will FEEL like they did something.

[ironman1315]

I mentioned Obama because you mentioned the NTSB was doing this as a boondoggle for private prisons, which Obama tried to get rid of (rightfully so private prisons are a joke). Those two things don’t compute. And I also agree, the punishments should be harsher when caught. But .05 isn’t a Mormon idea. It’s an NTSB idea. And I would be willing to be bet if we increased penalties we would still be having a similar debate.

[Puget Ute]

The War on Drugs is a huge boondoggle for private prisons, and I merely suggested this would be similar. But the truth is most people who get DUIs don’t go to prison, so I would have been more correct to suggest this will be a huge boondoggle for the attorneys who advertise their DUI Defense practices on late-night TV.

I do not believe there is political motivation behind the law, beyond that driven by the NTSB leadership (which has nothing to do with D vs R).

Increased penalties would likely do more to help than will lowering the level to 0.05, only because this new restriction is merely playing with the margins and will intrude too far into people who are not noticeably diminished, as well as increasing the number of people who will get collared mistakenly.

I think you are stuck on the notion some have of this being a Mormon idea. But they also fail to remember that repealing Prohibition was also ‘a Mormon idea’, in that Utah was the deciding vote for the amendment.

[PorterRockwell]

Who funded the alleged studies? Follow the money. Does the NTSB get more funding for “achieving” certain things?

[ironman1315]

The NTSB conducted the study. There are other studies cited by the NTSB looking at stats in Europe before and after the change. The NTSB is a federal commission, so I doubt they are paid by the result. And this study was conducted under the Obama administration. The change was first suggested in 2013, also by the Obama administration.

[Utah]

When God decides, there is no argument. Let’s hope God goes back to his scriptoral teachings:

All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

 17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

 18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shallreceive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;

 19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;

 20 And shall run and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.

 21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

[ironman1315]

Wait, that dictates what the BAC should be for drunk driving laws?

[Utah]

Let’s be real here. Without the Church pushing this, this is a non issue. 

Now, all I did was show a scripture that says beer is ok. And not only is beer ok, but it will bring health, wisdom, run and not be weary, discover hidden treasures, etc. Just a little ironic, don’t cha think? 

There, we have scripture where God says beer is ok on the one hand, and on the other, we have the Church, God’s Church, who claims to be led by God, doing their best to make drinking a beer extremely difficult, and if you do so, you will be punished harshly. 

You don’t appreciate the humor in that? Not even a little? I think it’s pretty funny. 

According to God, if I drink beer and don’t eat meat I’ll have a wealth of treasures. But, here we are pushing people to not drink beer and meat is ok (although largely irrelevant in this discussion). 

[ironman1315]

I’ve heard from lobbyists that were tangentially involved with the the bill and legislative staff that the LDS church was not actively lobbying for this bill. Their official position was that not have a position.

[PorterRockwell]

You do realize that sometimes that organization’s silence can speak volumes right? Last year they did publicly state thst Utah’s alcohol laws were fine as is.

Rep Brad Wilson acknowledged he actively sought their input as a stakeholder

I’m not saying they shouldn’t be heard but their voice shouldn’t carry more weight than everyone else’s in the room combined

[ironman1315]

The question is did it? How can you be certain that it wasn’t the NTSB stats that put the legislators over the edge? What evidence do you have beyond conjecture?

[PorterRockwell]

We aren’t in a court of law. We’re in the court of public opinion none of those legislators are going to admit that they contacted and encoursged to vote one way or another If you don’t think it happens then you’re living in denial.

I’ve lived here 50+ years. I’ve watched good legislation die and bad legislation pass right after the lds church issued a public statement. In the last few years the public statements have been toned down. They’ve resorted to back channels to get their message through

So if you want proof that would hold up in court that’s going to be difficult to find. But the timeline over the years, well it’s pretty evident what happened

[ironman1315]

Again, I have talked to actual legislators, legislative staff, and lobbyists. These people are gossip mongers. If the church had done any lobbying for this the lobbyists would have heard and picked a little, talked a little, and cheep cheeped about it. I know staff members, personally, that would have told me if the LDS church was involved. I know legislators would have talked about it, since the legislators I talked to actually opposed the bill.

[Tony (admin)]

On the way to work I listened to a national radio show which mentioned this law. They were completely laughing and making fun of Utah and how idiotic the laws are. We are pretty much an embarrassment to the rest of the nation with crap like this.  All this will do is hurt local businesses and tourism.  They’re fine with killing business as long as it forces their moral beliefs on the heathens.  Makes me so f’ing p**sed off.  Yes I want to move.  One day I will.

[ironman1315]

Is tourism hurt in Australia and Europe because of their harsher DUI laws?

And did the commenters mention the NTSB? Because if they didn’t they’re either uninformed or intellectually dishonest.

[PorterRockwell]

I noticed that you haven’t mentioned the cultural role thst responsible social drinking plays in Europe Australia et al. There are cultural differences

Here dui offenders rarely face any serious jail time. In Europe etc they do. I’ve been in court when repeat offenders, ten plus convictions, have been sentenced tonpaybtheir fines install the interlock etc European DUI penalties are much harsher

We both know that 0.05 is not going to keep the problem drivers off the road. The law was passed as punishment for changing the Zion Curtsin laws.
1/3 step forward 15 steps back

[ironman1315]

I didn’t mention the cultural differences because it is irrelevant to my argument. My argument is not to support .05. I don’t care. My argument is that this law is not as utterly ridiculous nor as religiously motivated as so many would like to believe.

And I agree, punishments for DUIs should be harsher, that would have been my first step. But, then again, we would probably still be here discussing the issue, because any change in drinking laws to make them harsher=LDS church influence, even if the federal government supports it and has supported for the past 4 years.

[Puget Ute]

The culture in Europe includes teaching children how to drink responsibly. My friend from Belgium had a bit of wine (a few ounces) with dinner every night starting around age 12. Everybody in her family and village drinks nearly daily, and yet nobody really binges in any way.

Part of the problem with the alcohol laws in Utah is they encourage binge drinking. The places which gave a license are relatively few and far between, so people need to travel further to get to an establishment where they can drink. After the hassle of all that, they are more likely to have an extra one or two rather than stop at one. And often people don’t want to get a cab or Uber because it is ‘expensive’ (though cheap compared to a DUI) to get home. And it is a hassle to find a friend to be the DD.

Frankly this is kind of the same thing we see in populations that have good and comprehensive sex ed, vs those that have ‘abstinence-only’ as the education. Kids who know the risks and how to manage the risks are better off than those who don’t understand the risks or feel shamed for being prepared. There is a reason STD and teen pregnancy rates are so high in areas with abstinence-only ‘education’.

[Utah]

I’m just glad we are trying to keep people away from alcohol instead of educating them.

[ironman1315]

What education is necessary for DUI besides have a means to get home besides driving home drunk?

[PorterRockwell]

well we could stop demonizing alcohol and educate people on moderate consumption.

The point you seem to be ignoring is that less than 1% of DUI crashes in Utah involve a BAC of 0.08 or lower so why make the change at all? what are hoping to accomplish with these change? It looks like a “solution” looking for a problem to solve

[ironman1315]

What education is necessary? Don’t get s**tfaced. I don’t drink and I know this. I can read the stats on how much of each drink should or could affect me. I don’t need to be spoon fed information, and with a modicum of diligence on the individual’s part, they could make an informed decision themself.

[Tony (admin)]

So are drunks simply not “educated” on drinking? That’s the assumption? If drunks were more educated about drinking and the dangers of overconsumption would they not get drunk? I think not.

[ironman1315]

Utah was the one saying we needed more education, not me. I am asking what education is necessary to prevent drunk driving or to promote responsible alcohol consumption. Seems to me its know what your limits are and figure out your limits before consuming.

[Tony (admin)]

I’m asking the question, not saying it was you.

[Puget Ute]

We aren’t exactly talking about ‘drunks’ when discussing 0.05%. Some people seem to think that one drink = falling down drunk in the gutter and living in a van down by the river…

[Utah]

I was commenting on the legislature being worried about this silliness when our teachers are paid garbage amounts of money. 

Before we moved from Utah in 2014, our kids went to a highly rated elementary school in Kaysville. 

Our kids received straight A’s. When we moved to Washington, they all tested below their grade level. 

But, yeah, we can raise so more money with law, revenues, amiright? We thank thee oh god for a profit. 

[Puget Ute]

Yup. Teachers in Utah fight an unwinnable battle, and without a decent wage structure.

My own kids here in WA are very well-prepared for secondary education and beyond, and both of the local high schools they can choose to attend (open enrollment) are in the top 1% in the nation. And the local college (UW) is top 20 in the world in many subjects. Edumacation in WA is serious business (at least in the bigger cities) and we turn out very well-educated kids.

My child who is a Soph in HS is doing things in his math class that I didn’t learn until college, and I am a friggin’ engineer with minors in math and chemistry.

[Author]

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