Gotta love the transparency

[PorterRockwell]

http://www.sltrib.com/news/5022806-155/lawmakers-quickly-draft-pass-bill-for

this is the Utah legislature we all know love and trust  no public committee hearing and passed in the last four days of the session 

[Utah]

Three minutes debate for $100,000,000.

Crazy.

[Utahute72]

So who audits the State Senate?

[ironman1315]

Because clearly lawmakers had no idea this was coming back in November and December and was clearly not part of the budget proposed by Herbert. I can guarantee they have had debates about this all throughout it just wasn’t public and for good reason, it allows legislators to actually talk about their concerns without the need to couch what they say into words that would be politically acceptable, which just obfuscates actual discussion.

Also, from what I understand, the prison won’t be the hole that is out in Draper now, but something that makes the prisoners feel like they are actually human. The emphasis with the new prison will not be punishment but rehabilitation. And that is a good thing since rehabilitation programs generally cut recidivism rates for most offenders. The present prison is utterly deficient in rehabilitating people since it was designed with one goal in mind, punish the offenders.

[Utah]

it allows legislators to actually talk about their concerns without the need to couch what they say into words that would be politically acceptable,

Huh? This makes no sense to me. To me, it means one of two things:

1 – The public is too stupid to know what is going on, that they need to be protected by the governement. That comes off as very elitist and left wing, according to all my conservative friends, right?

or

2 – The legislature is so stupid, they really don’t know what is going on, and by making the discussions public, they will be found out that this is less what is good for the Utah and more what is good for them.

Either way, not too good of a look.

I doubt many in Utah would be too distraught if the prison actually does some good, as you claim it will. In fact, if they make these details public, I’d bet the public would actually have some feelings of adequacy towards the legislature, for once.

[ironman1315]

1 – The public is too stupid to know what is going on, that they need to be protected by the governement. That comes off as very elitist and left wing, according to all my conservative friends, right?

To me, it’s a recognition of fact. That’s why the Constitutional Convention was held in utter secrecy, because the public was too stupid. That’s why so many meetings are done behind closed doors because the public is too stupid. Or rather, they just don’t have the time to understand the nitty gritty reality of the political process. Also, let’s take a look at what would happen, in a hypothetical conversation.

Legislators generally agree that rehabilitation and not punishment would be better for the state. Let’s say one of those people is in a deep red district. His personal beliefs, based on the facts and information in front of him, are that the prison should be moved in order to facilitate rehabbing prisoners. But, the people in his district believe that criminals in prison just need to rot in jail. He can’t fully express his opinions in public because his district is full of wackadoos. So, how can he express his opinion? He has to do it in private. Then, when the vote comes he votes in favor of it. His reasoning? Oh, it will cost the taxpayers less in the long run. And since he has an R by his name most of his voters will believe that line, even though, deep down, he’s doing it because he feels it’s best to rehabilitate rather than punish. That is a benefit of closed doors. It also allows legislators to look at the numbers. And perform a utilitarian calculus that would seem cold and heartless to far too many but would, in fact, be best for the state.

And it’s not a good look, but it has to be done. Because the public, who thinks a Representative has any say in the confirmation of a President’s political appointments, or who doesn’t understand both the vertical (between state and feds) and the horizontal (between different branches of the same level of government) is just too damn uninformed to look at the hard choices and the facts in front of them that have to be made.

I doubt many in Utah would be too distraught if the prison actually does some good, as you claim it will. In fact, if they make these details public, I’d bet the public would actually have some feelings of adequacy towards the legislature, for once.

Thing is that they have. There have been a couple of releases that doing nothing would cost the state $500 million or so and that doesn’t account for the fact that we may need to build another state facility within the foreseeable future due simply because of population growth, even if the new prison with its extra capacity is expanded to what the land in that area will allow. But nobody wants to talk about that. Nobody wants to talk about the fact that the legislature is getting out ahead of the rehabilitation curve and putting non-violent offenders into a category that will help them become productive members of society, and have been doing so for years with certain drug court pilot programs. No, they want the sensational. Policy is dull, but the chance for scandal? Now that is a story.

[Utah]

Now, I agree with most of what you are saying. My point is this:

Republicans LOVE to use the word: ELITE, ELITISM, etc when talking about the democrats when the democrats do exactly what you say.

Yet, when the republicans do it, it’s all “daddy knows best”.

That is my point.

BTW, read this, great article by a conservative:

Sometimes people are smarter than you, that’s why we elect representatives.

Here is another great quote:

There is a cult of ignorance in the US, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellecutalism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nutured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” – Isaac Asimov

[ironman1315]

Republicans LOVE to use the word: ELITE, ELITISM, etc when talking about the democrats when the democrats do exactly what you say.

Yet, when the republicans do it, it’s all “daddy knows best”.

I see where you are coming from, but I have found that it’s not just Republicans. Often liberals do it too, depending on the specific area of expertise. Although, Republicans are, admittedly, more prone to this than liberals. It’s a people thing to believe ignorance is as good as knowledge, like Asimov said. It’s maddening too.

[Utah]

This is true as well.

[Stradlater]

Until recently I would have argued with both of you. Now I agree.

[Utah]

Did we just become friends?!?

[Stradlater]

It’s all rainbows and unicorns on UteHub these days.

[PorterRockwell]

She now you have two friends. Me and the new guy. 

[Utah]

I’m moving on up!

[ironman1315]

I would have argued with me too until I saw the rise of Hair Donald and looked at people’s political posts on Facebook for the past 4 years or so.

[zeous]

Maybe the constant use of the word ‘elite’ has a subtleness to it… for those who can understand.

[Stradlater]

Like a dog whistle.

[ironman1315]

What does that even mean?

[zeous]

I was hoping someone else might know.

[ironman1315]

the HFIL you talkin’ about?

[PlainsUte]

Clearly the folks at LDS, Inc wanted it to happen.

[Author]

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