Honest question that I know I’m going to get murdered over

[Jim McMahon]

This looks like a pretty blatant hold that definitely affected Jojo’s route.

When you watch the play, Retzlaff initially looks to his left in Jojo’s direction and can obviously see that there is no separation. And then he looks to the middle of the field and the play is over and he gets sacked. I don’t know if he could have made the throw or what would have happened, but he never had a chance due to the hold.

I fully admit that if the shoe were on the other foot that I would be p**sed too. It sucks to have this penalty in that situation. But I’ve heard so many Ute fans say it was a standard contact and that it had no bearing on the play. I’m sure this is one of those times where if you’re a BYU fan you think it was a hold, and if you’re a Ute fan, you don’t. But does this angle change anyone’s opinion?

This is the best video I've seen of the holding call. This is definitely MORE than a typical hands battle off the line and the Ute defender was going to get beat. This was shot by my cousin who was at the game. pic.twitter.com/azmNB3L2fk

— ΠΛSĦ (@nashDPT12) November 12, 2024

[UteBaron89]

Changes mine. Finally a good angle. Too bad ESPN can’t afford more cameras. The only thing left that bothers me is how long he waited to reach for his flag. Was he waiting to see the result of the play?

[Whoops]

I think the ref reaches for his flag once he sees the contact, but he doesn’t throw for a second. Looks pretty natural, I wouldn’t expect a ref to reach for and throw a flag in one fluid motion. There is a slight delay, but it’s hold all the same.

[RustyShackleford]

When the “hold” took place your QB was on his ass. There was never going to be a completed pass there. Refs inserted themselves into the game on back to back possessions to keep BYU alive.

[Ted Lasso]

Go to the 17 second mark when the hold took place on the video and tell me if Jake Retzlaff is on his ass or not.

[Jim McMahon]

I’m sorry, that’s just not accurate. And I’m not trying to be argumentative. Watch the play again. Jake looks to his left and sees that Jojo isn’t open during the hold. Then he looks to the middle and gets sacked. Utah got pressure really fast, but there was a window to make a throw to Jojo on the left.

Again, I don’t know if he would have been able to make an accurate throw as your safety was over the top in a good position, but he did look that way and then moved to his next read when he saw that Jojo wasn’t open. It definitely affected the play.

[2008 National Champ]

If it had affected the play, the ball would have landed incomplete and the call would have been pass interference. I don’t know why this is so hard. You are assuming an outcome for the play that didn’t happen.

I don’t know the play call any more than you do so I’m just interpreting what I see from your clip. Tell me if you think it is plausible. I see your receiver initially running a slant route which has a go option attached. He makes the initial cut, looks for the ball which isn’t coming because he’s covered and changes to the go option. In the process he “pushes off” with his left arm to get separation, Vaughn reacts to the contact and gets the shoulder and the receiver continues his route.

This one second of game action happens somewhere on the game field during almost every passing play in every game that is ever played. Both players committed what could have been fouls to no advantage which is why any unbiased observer is saying it’s a 50-50 call.

[Rick Walker]

Here’s my take (trying to be as unbiased as possible). The receiver givers a little push to break the press (fine) and Vaughn loses his balance and grabs the jersey in a desperate attempt to catch up which forces the defender to lose his own balance when he turns and they both stumble over their own toes before retzlaff is sacked. This is a hold, it sucks, it’s unfortunate, but it’s probably the right call. However, I don’t think retzlaff had his eyes on that receiver the way some people do. It looks to me likes he’s looking back towards the middle of the field and wouldn’t have thrown to said receiver for at least another couple yards downfield. No nobody will ever know what went through retzlaffs head in that exact moment of play, very likely including retzlaff but I find a hard way to view it as actually affecting the play as a whole. It’s always gonna be a frustrating call because even if he got totally burned I don’t think it would’ve mattered.

[Jim McMahon]

I think you’re probably right. I look at the video and as a clearly biased BYU fan, I see Jake look to Jojo and see him stumbling. He then looks to his next read and it’s over.

I also agree that even if Jojo had created separation here it likely would have been a tough throw with the safety over the top.

So from that standpoint, it was very likely game over regardless, so that absolutely sucks for your team that played lights out defense on that series.

And I also fully recognize the hypocrisy in being a fan. I totally get the injustice of this call in that moment from your vantage point, and I would feel the same way.

I was simply making the argument to the Ute fans I had heard saying this was a routine play. From this angle, it looks like a really blatant hold to me. And unfortunately for you guys, this is the angle the ref had who threw the flag. It’s honestly bad luck. But again, it absolutely sucks to make that call in that moment and I can’t argue with that.

[ladyinred]

Yes it does. That angle also shows a facemask committed by #13. Why wasn’t that called?

[UTE98]

Lady, I didn’t see that before you pointed it out. Sadly refs don’t call facemask on the offense. Was the facemask the reason the hold occurred? Very likely. So did the WR’s facemask play into the hold, I’d say yes. The frustration is in this moment of the game, it is within 5 yards, the WR pushes off, grabs the facemask and Vaughn got called for a hold.

Really, really a very crappy call which went against our Utes.

However, Whitt’s time management, combined with Scalley’s zone defense also contributed to TDS even having a chance to get down the field. The game would have been over if the call wasn’t made, however Utah’s coaching staff still found a way to lose the game. In spite of being in a great position.

[2008 National Champ]

I believe the 5 yard rule you are referring is only in the NFL

[The Miami Ute]

Here’s the rule:

Yes, there can be contact with a wide receiver (WR) within five yards of the line of scrimmage in NCAA football, as long as it’s within the rules:

Eligible receivers: Defenders can legally block eligible receivers beyond the line of scrimmage until the pass is thrown. Once the receiver is on the same yard line or beyond the defender, the defender must leave them alone.

Ineligible receivers: The NCAA allows ineligible receivers to be up to three yards beyond the line of scrimmage. The penalty for an ineligible receiver being beyond the line of scrimmage is five yards. However, there is an exception for screen plays, where the ineligible player can cross the line of scrimmage to block when the ball is caught behind the line.

Continuous contact: Continuous contact is illegal.

[RoboUte]

Doesn’t really change the discussion. The issue wasn’t whether it’s plausible a hold occurred, it was whether the call was ticky tack and if a foul would’ve even mattered. It’s a broader discussion about when and why officials should alter the raw outcome of a game. As some have pointed out similar fouls occur constantly, not a play goes by without an OL hold. It’s hard to dismiss the notion that a hold here (like any previously uncalled holds) had no real impact on the play. I’m certain of 2 things, it’s a hold by the letter, and it’s a bad call. Call it when it matters and stow the flag when it doesn’t, it’s that simple, and that’s exactly what refs do on every single play of the game. Mistakes happen but if you make one on a game deciding play expect the heat.

[Jim McMahon]

I think that’s fair and I’m not disputing that. The timing of this call is awful. And I agree and recognize that I would be equally angry if I were in your shoes. But I am also guessing that if the roles were reversed, you would likely be defending the call if it led your team to making the game-winning drive. I can’t prove that, but I’m guessing that’s the case.

I was simply disputing the notion that this was a non-event. I had seen many posts on X saying that this was a routine play that takes place about 100 times a game between cornerback and receiver, and that just simply is not true. That’s the only argument I was making.

[2008 National Champ]

two things can be true at the same time:

1. Receivers use their hands and bodies to separate themselves from defenders who are at the same time using their hands and bodies to keep the receivers close (happens all the time)
2. Defensive holding is not a common call

If you are really interested in how hard a call that is to make, here are a couple of former refs discussing a much more egregious example: The Dilemma of Defensive Holding: To Flag or Not to Flag

[Brettski]

honestly if the shoe was on the other foot we’d say – dang thats unfortunate for byu but we’ll take it. Not get on some high horse non-stop justifying it as ‘textbook’ or whatever ish they are doing.

Or just maybe we’d be saying – dang we’re supposed to be a top 10 team right now and got lucky breaks to beat a team having an all time down year.

Either way it was a nice push off by the byu receiver causing Vaughn to grab a little to regain his balance. Thanks for the great angle on that link.

[krindor]

My take from as neutral an observer as I can be

If we’re going letter of the rulebook, there’s 5 penalties in that play. And it was the last one (also the most meaningless one) that hurt Utah

1. Jatta (#50) has a pretty good hold on the passrusher coming up the middle
2. A different Utah pass rusher comes and runs the RB over….which is allowed, except that he does so with hands to the face, which is not allowed
3. Phillips (BYU #13) extends the arm and pushes Vaughn off, just before Vaughn grabs Phillips’ shoulder
4. Zemaiah Vaughn gets the yank on Jojo Phillips early
5. Vaughn then wraps his arm around Phillips’ torso 

Given all that, the MOST correct call would have been offsetting penalties, replay 4th down. But if we slow every play down and look carefully, I’d wager there’s multiple offsetting penalties on just about every play. Calling every penalty correctly would frankly ruin the flow and enjoyment of the game.

And the first two here (the offensive hold and the passrusher hands to the face) are common enough at the LOS to get lost. They’re still penalties by rule, but not egregious enough to be called/noticed there.

Even the third and fourth foul probably doesn’t get called there. It’s in the first five yards, they’re mixed in with some hand fighting and (fair or not, though I lean towards not) game situation has an impact on how refs call things.  And note the ref doesn’t go for his flag there.

But the fifth one (Vaughn’s arm around Phillip’s torso) is big enough and blatant enough that it’ll get called every time. And (my opinion, and based off when the ref went for his flag) that’s the part that got Utah penalized

Interestingly, it was probably also the least impactful of the five. By THAT point (not the Phillips push-off or the Vaughn shoulder yank), the Utah defenders already had hands on Retzlaff and he wasn’t going anywhere. Without that second part by Vaughn, Phillips probably does beat him. And it almost certainly doesn’t matter because Retzlaff still goes down and the game is over. And then BYU fans are the ones sitting and complaining about the missed defensive hold (or passrusher hands to the face) and the officiating.

But the bottom line is that last action (wrapping the arm) was too egregious to be ignored, even if less impactful than the other fouls. So, we can argue it’s ticky-tack and shouldn’t get called there, but that last part was probably egregious and blatant enough to leave the refs no other choice (even if it had zero impact on the play – the ref is watching the receivers, not the QB, so doesn’t know the play is effectively over by then). And more importantly, we absolutely still had the opportunity to hold on defense. A no-call there would have won us the game, but the call didn’t lose it for us. Also worth noting there were worse calls earlier – both ways (BYU fans will point out the phantom facemask in the second quarter, Utah fans can point to a terrible offensive hold on Utah in the fourth that turned 4th and 1 into 4th and 10 and a punt).

[RoboUte]

I love the thorough analysis

[Jim McMahon]

Really good analysis

[utefansince79]

Calls in the secondary are some of the trickiest (and often most controversial) ones in football. Sometimes have a tightly officiated game where several PI and defensive holding are made each way, sometimes few or no such calls are made in the entire game.

We had one PI call our way (for about 2-3 yards) early in the game then none I remember on either team until the fateful one that is being HEAVILY discussed. Should the call have been made on a game deciding play in the last few minutes? Many Utah fans say NO while many BYU supporters say YES. I say the call was quite harsh and shouldn’t have been made but others will of course have a differing viewpoint.

Never will get agreement on both sides no matter how long we discuss it.

[Jim Vanderhoof]

Why are we beating a dead horse. The game is over and BYU won. We had our chances and didn’t take advantage. BYU finds ways to win and we find ways to lose. BYU fans trying to justify the win and Utah fans trying to justify the loss. I hope this game lights a fire under our program and motivates us for next year.

[Brettski]

honestly if the shoe was on the other foot we’d say – dang thats unfortunate for byu but we’ll take it. Not get on some high horse non-stop justifying it as ‘textbook’ or whatever ish they are doing.

Or just maybe we’d be saying – dang we’re supposed to be a top 10 team right now and got lucky breaks to beat a team having an all time down year.

Either way it was a nice push off by the byu receiver causing Vaughn to grab a little to regain his balance. Thanks for the great angle on that link.

[Stone]

It is the best angle. Thank you for sharing. It changes my mind. Whether the call should have been made in that situation can be debated, but Utah’s defender definitely grabbed the receiver’s jersey and held. The subsequent facemask by the defender came afterward. I no longer question whether there was a hold on the play (I previously did).

Even before seeing that, I have found the complaining by the refs (from both fans and the AD) to be lame. The refs did not cost Utah the game. Utah had its chances and came up short. As others have pointed out, a field goal in the second half or even a first down on that final Utah possession would have won the game. Utah had its chances, but was not good enough.

[Tony (admin)]

Utah scored ZERO points in the 2nd half.

[lgt4141]

This is the problem. We keep talking about the hold but forget that the defense allowed BYU to go 90+ yards twice to score and the offense couldn’t score in the 2nd half or even get a first down to win the game.

[TheNuschler]

My best friend went to Cal and has a family full of BYU fans. He pays attention to the Y/Utah rivalry. He hates both equally but has always been pretty objective and opinions are spot on because he’s an outsider looking into it. After the game he mentioned the hold in the context of the Cal v. Miami game where the Miami defender clearly hit with the crown and launched at Cal’s QB during their late drive to win the game. Even the announcers were like “well, that’s clear cut targeting…” but even a booth review dismissed it. The conversation all week didn’t really focus on the game but the refs non-call. He texted me the following after “you shouldn’t make that call at that moment unless its obvious and extended through the entire play. This is a common deal when your conference has an undefeated team in the current landscape, Miami literally should have 2 losses but now only has one. It makes fun games unwatchable cause there is a feeling something wasn’t right. Was it a hold? Probably. Was the same play called before or during the game? Nope.”

I’ll never blame the refs and the Utes had plenty of chances to finish the game to win. I thought the game was a great reflection of what the rivalry should be, even after when the fans were losing it, the players for the most part kept their composure. Arguing over a subjective detail sucks for everyone.

[The Miami Ute]

I’m a Miami fan and I agree with you that Miami should have three losses this season. I still can’t understand how the refs overturned Va Tech’s last gasp TD pass when none of the replays showed conclusive evidence that Tech’s receiver had not caught the ball. At that game, the announcers started talking not about conclusive evidence but something akin to a preponderance of the facts and logic based analysis, if I remember correctly. I was flabbergasted because how can you change the rules and expectations at the end of one game?

I also saw that Cal game you were talking about. Kind of reminded me of Utah’s game versus BYU, in the sense that if Cal had gotten that 1st Down, the game was over. Anyways, as you say, what occurred there was a textbook targeting call, much like what we’ve seen in the last few years in college football but somehow the ref didn’t call it. Here’s what it looked like at the time: CONTROVERSIAL GAME CHANGING CALL: MIAMI HURRICANES vs CAL GOLDEN BEARS. It does make you wonder, with how much money is at stake in college football today , if someone doesn’t occasionally have their thumb on the scale.

[TheNuschler]

Thanks for posting that link. No doubt Cal fans should be more p**sed than Ute fans over that. My Best friend’s hate burns for the ACC refs, Miami, anyone associated with that conference with the power of a thousand suns… still. Plus, being from Cal and a science grad he wants to use their patented Cyclotron to level the ACC athletics office.

“naw, that was me…”

[The Miami Ute]

LOL…I think Cal had like a 25-point lead in the 4th QTR or that game…one of the most epic collapses in the last couple of decades…as an anecdote, Cal’s QB, Fernando Mendoza, is a Cuban kid from Miami and actually is friends with my nephew who went to high school with him.

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