Trump has done some outrageous things so far, most of which I can easily look at

[AZswayze]

and say “woah, that seems like a horrible idea”. I can’t do that with the immigration ban. While I don’t agree with the ban itself, I understand the sentiment behind it. The thread a little ways down is a perfect example of how some people tend to grasp onto one side of an argument, and demonize others with differing opinions, thus shutting down any hope of a civil discourse. How are we supposed to work through our problems, some of which will determine the course of human history, if we shout each other down as soon as they dare broach the topic?
 
On one hand, we have people who support the ban. It’s true that some are racists, xenophobes and bigots, but many are watching what’s happening in Europe and have what I believe is a legitimate fear of the same thing taking place in the US. We’ve been attacked numerous times now by homegrown and foreign Islamic terrorists, so it’s not as if the fear is completely unfounded. It’s quite possible that the only thing that has saved us from this same fate so far is the Atlantic Ocean. 
 
On the other hand, we have people who vehemently oppose any immigration bans. Some of these folks are emotionally laden social justice warriors who refuse to even consider the possibility that allowing unfettered immigration may lead to more terrorism here. Most, I believe, understand the risks, but struggle with the fact that these refugees are people just like you and I. The vast majority of them are fleeing their homeland due to the very real threat of rape, torture and murder. To simply turn them away without offering any sort of help is cruel, inhumane, and dare I say it, “un-christian” (although, that’s a whole other debate). 
 
Our vetting process is actually very stringent, but as 72 noted in the earlier thread, collecting intel on would-be terrorists is incredibly difficult (you have no idea how painful it is agreeing with 72 twice in one week). I’m not sure that making the background check even stricter would help much, but I’m certainly not for weakening it. This is an incredibly complex situation, and we’re once again letting the extremists take the pulpit. Unfortunately, our President created this situation by implementing an order that seems rash and reckless. Still, this isn’t the time to shout down the opposition simply for asking questions.

[Utah]

Who, as you put it:

vehemently oppose any immigration bans.

Who opposes “any” immigration bans?

I like what Obama had been doing. The fact that it takes years to get in is fantastic. The fact that 98% of the refugees we take in are elderly, women, children and LGBT is fantastic.

I don’t think we should open the flood gates and start letting anyone in. No one has ever said that.

BUT, Rust Belt cities could use more people.There ARE some immigrants/refugees that are educated and have a lot to offer. There are SOME refugees/immigrants that could come to this country and do great things, just like my father, who is an immigrant, has done. Just like my mother’s parents, who are immigrants, have done.

To throw out some “ban” (YOUR WORD!!!, lol, go watch Melissa McCarthy’s SNL skit)…

I’m not ok with that. It’s nothing more than a PR stunt, and unfortunately, some are just eating it up. It’s a shame.

[Utah]

Also, the fact that Trump’s ban didn’t actually ban immigrants from countries that actually killed Americans on American soil…

His ban was nothing more than a PR stunt. He wants to see what he can get away with. Thank goodness for checks and balances. Thank goodness for republicans and democrats who can see through this nonsense. 

[AZswayze]

Did you even bother to read my post, or did you just skim the title? I straight up said it was a rash and reckless bill. I understand the feelings behind it though, which you refuse to consider. You said earlier that the fear is bulls**t, but that is exactly the kind of extremist sentiment I’m talking about. If you don’t worry even a little bit about Muslim refugees streaming into this country then you are not paying attention.

[Utah]

If you don’t worry even a little bit about Muslim refugees streaming into this country then you are not paying attention.

Where have I said this?

I’ve said the opposite time and time again. I’ve said I like how long it takes to get in. I like that you must pass a background check by the NSA, FBI, CIA, Dept of Homeland Security, etc to get in. I like the checks in place that we have up. I like that we are taking mostly women and children.

How does ANY of that say I’m not worried about muslims streaming in?

Fear, when it is unfounded, is bulls**t.

Show me where all these refugees have come into the country and done all the terrible things you guys are afraid of?

[AZswayze]

You have not shown once that it is unfounded. You have dug your heels in and refuse to accept that people are scared. You’d rather call them xenophobes and racists. That’s much easier.

[Utah]

Show me then. I’ve shown you facts on my side. You haven’t shown me anything.

[AZswayze]

Are you high? Seriously? I’ve linked to polls, reports, and articles, and you’ve given me nada, other than your own subjectivity.

[AZswayze]

Why does the word “ban” bother you? And, you have not been watching much of the protests if you have never heard anybody oppose any bans.

The fact that it takes years to get in is fantastic.

I disagree with this. While I did say that weakening the vetting process isn’t a viable solution, I think we can improve on it, and possibly streamline it. I don’t believe in arbitrary numbers for complex issues.

Ignoring the fact that the most of these people come from countries where the majority opinion is that Sharia Law should be the official rule of law is foolhardy (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/22/muslims-and-islam-key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/). You can say that 98% of them are great people, but even if they are escaping tyranny, they most likely harbor some incredibly scary political views.

Western Muslims tend to be more liberal with their ideologies, but these refugees don’t fit that mold. Even in Arizona we’ve had honor killings. This is precisely why I have a difficult time with this subject. My human side wants to reach out and help other people, but my survivalist side wants to protect myself and my family, not just from terrorism, but from horrible ideas that lead to horrific outcomes.

[Utah]

We’ve been taking in refugees/immigrants since the day we were conceived. Can you show me where this has led to the downfall of American communities? 

I’ve shown you how it has helped communities and brought dying cities back to life. 

Where is your proof, other than “they are scary?”

I’d love to see a link to your “honor killings in Phoenix”. 

Like I said, if I’m wrong, I’m wrong and I’ll change. But, I haven’t found any proof that I’m wrong yet. 

[AZswayze]

I gave you a link to the Pew poll on Sharia law. Beyond that, we have actually been attacked on our own soil, and we’ve witnessed countless attacks in Europe. You continue to mock others who think differently than you, but you are the one who refuses to examine the facts. As far as the honor killing in Phoenix, here you go:
http://archive.azcentral.com/community/glendale/articles/20110415glendale-honor-killing-case-sentencing.html

[Utah]

Who attacked us on US Soil? 

[AZswayze]

9/11, Santa Barbara, The Boston Marathon, etc. Not all the perpetrators were immigrants, but I specifically referenced homegrown terrorists in my earlier post. We are battling ideas here, more so than people, and all of these people had one thing in common. Unfortunately, we simply don’t know who harbors these ideas, so there is an understandable fear. Your denial of that fear, and mocking of people who express it helps nothing.

[zeous]

Don’t forget Trolley Square.

[AZswayze]

Was that determined to be fueled by his Muslim beliefs?

[zeous]

I don’t know what the “official” determination was.  But his beliefs were what they were and he did what he did.

[Utah]

What countries were they from? I’d tell you, but you learn better by finding things out on your own.

[AZswayze]

What does that matter? Seriously, how is that relevant when I’ve said we’re battling ideas here. I assume you’re trying to throw Trump’s ban in my face, even though I said that I don’t agree with it and that it was a rash decision. Your condescending jabs are laughable considering the obvious lack of thought put into your own posts.

[AZswayze]

Also, your constant attempt to rationalize this by equating Mormons to Muslims is ridiculous. I’m a staunch anti-theist, but Mormons are relatively docile. Outside of a relatively obscure and controversial incident 150+ years ago, they don’t even register a blip on the radar.

Now, to be perfectly clear (although you haven’t understood it to this point anyway), I’m not saying the refugees will be terrorists. I’m saying that Islam fosters some pretty terrible ideas, as evidenced by the Pew poll linked above, and that simply turning a blind eye to this is not wise.

[Utah]

I googled “honor killing Phoenix” and one guy, in 2010, killed his daughter. It’s a tradegy, for sure. Not an epidemic, not a reason to stop what we have been doing. 

Where are the “number” of killings in Phoenix the last five years? According to my 5 second google search, there are ZERO honor killings the last five years in Phoenix. 

I guess zero is a number too, right? 

I may be wrong, but it doesn’t look that way. 

[AZswayze]

I had reworded it right after. We’ve had a number of honor killings in the US, and there have been suspected honor killings in Arizona, but only one that, so far, has been successfully charged (sorry, it was 7 years ago, not 5). That doesn’t change my point, and it certainly doesn’t change the fact that this is a far more complex issue than you are trying to paint it.

[Utah]

Links? 

[AZswayze]

Suddenly you’re not so good with google? https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/bjs/grants/248879.pdf

As this states, honor violence is usually kept under wraps by family members, so we really have no idea how much of this is actually occurring. I’m not trying to stoke fear, as this really doesn’t affect you or I, but I am trying to get you to see that this goes beyond just terrorism (which is a legitimate enough threat in its own right). As Sam Harris has said “Islam is the motherlode of bad ideas”. I hate to keep falling back on that Pew poll, but it’s pretty damning, or at least eye opening.

[Utah]

From your article:

There is no reliable summary data available for the United States regarding the

prevalence of honor violence. However, based on the literature review, interviews, and

online searches

conducted for this study, cases of any type of honor violence appear to

be rare in comparison to other types of crime in the United States.

 

Expressed as a rate, honor killing occurs approximately 0.008 offenses per 100,000 persons and

forced marriages about 0.5 per 100,000, compared with

4.7 for homicide, 27 for rape/sexual assault,

and 113 for robbery in the United States.

 

In North America, fathers were involved 100

percent of the time when the daughter

victim was 18 years or younger.

 

Maybe this is why we take mothers, children and elderly?

[AZswayze]

It’s rare, yes, and it doesn’t affect you or I, I said this already. Also, as I said before, these statistics are likely very conservative, as families tend to hide this behavior.

So, we take mothers, children and the elderly, but leave the father, thus dividing the family? How is that not cruel in its own way?

[Utah]

We don’t leave the father. We take widowed families.

[Utah]

I posted this below:

Half of the Syrian refugees brought to the U.S. so far have been children; and [2.5%] are adults over 60. And I think you will have heard that only 2 percent are single males of combat age. So we – there’s slightly more – it’s roughly 50/50 men and women, slightly more men I would say, but not – not a lot more men. So this is normal that as you’re – as we set a priority of bringing the most vulnerable people, we’re going to have female-headed households with a lot of children, and we’re going to have extended families that are maybe missing the person who used to be the top breadwinner but have several generations – grandparents, a widowed mother, and children.

[Utah]

There is ANOTHER FACT I have shown you. You haven’t shown any facts at all. Well, you did say there was a number of honor killings in Phoenix the last five years and that number was zero (and I had to do the research on that).

Where are your FACTS?

[AZswayze]

This is the first “fact” you posted. Even then, how does this help your argument? If we find a family to be vulnerable, and at extreme risk, but they are unlucky enough to have a father still in the equation, we simply turn them away?

Keep falling back on my mistake about the Phoenix killing being 7 years ago instead of 5. And tell me again how you are providing all the facts here with your subjective posts, while I have actually cited studies, polls, and reports. Jesus, you are trying so hard to discount people’s warranted fear. You are exactly the type of person my original post referred to.

[Utah]

I just read that thing. You should read it as well. It backs me up and my arguments.

And, yes, I’m just fine with google. You’re the one with claims, so you can go find me proof, if you have any. And so far, you don’t have any.

[AZswayze]

You are making a presupposition that I’m defending Trump’s bill, and that I’m saying immigrants bring crime and terror with them. You really need to go back and read my original post, and then think hard about what it is I’m trying to say, rather than fly off the handle defensively. I’m done arguing this point (we can only go in circles for so long), but in closing I’d like to make a suggestion. Try to understand why people are afraid, and don’t write them off immediately as racists. You’re doing yourself, and your entire side of the debate a disservice.

[Author]

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